What to do about a Surgeon I found?

[bikemutt]

I was in one of my favorite LGSs today, a pawnshop, and happened to notice a Surgeon rifle in .308 on the wall. This one is dressed in a McMillan A3 stock and wearing a Leupold Mark 4 8.5-25x50 on Badger rings. Jewel trigger, fluted heavy barrel. The rifle looks as if it's seen very little action. I learned the owner had pawned it back in 2010, made payments then quit so now it's for sale.

About the only thing I dislike about this package is the stock is a camo pattern I don't find attractive. But, the shopkeep pointed out that camo pattern is a $400 "upgrade" today. We went further and priced out the package were a person to order it today, it penciled out to over $6000 including the scope and various upgrades mentioned above.

The shop has a $4500 price on it but I was extended an offer to let it go for $3750. I really like this one, and it seems like a good deal on a very expensive rifle. I don't know a whole lot about Surgeon rifles but it seems as if no matter what rifle I mention, everyone says "yeah, but for that much you could buy a GA Precision or Accuracy International".

So, is this a good deal THR? Feel free to comment on Surgeon as well.

Thanks

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

I'd buy a Surgeon any day before an Accuracy International or GAP. Surgeons truly are hand made rifles, and the heart of the gun is the action. The Surgeon bolt action is a really fine action.

People who tell you "Accuracy International" or "GAP" buy things by names they recognize. If you asked these people if they've ever heard of BAT Machine rifle actions - I'm sure they'd give you a blank stare - enough said about what they really know. Here's a link to BAT's 3-lug bench rest action

Surgeon's actions are in the same league as BAT, and if you're looking for a truly superior rifle, the Surgeon is a great choice.

Look carefully at how the gun is made, work the action, try the trigger. If that doesn't sell you - please PM me the name of the gun shop because I'd like to talk with them about it.

 

[stubbicatt]

I have a BAT 3 lug actioned rifle. I have seen and manipulated Surgeons. They are Remington 700 actions in principle, appearance, and operation with a piece of rail bridging the opening.

Seems a lot of money for a Remmy, even if it does wear a different name.

That's my opinion, and we all know what that's worth.

 

[dubbleA]

OP, from your description it appears to have a 591 action. Who built the rifle? The builder/maker should be marked on the barrel. Surgeon builds rifles but so do 100's of others. The builder often dictates the price.

 

[taliv]

1st - just because the action says surgeon on the side, doesn't mean surgeon built the gun. they sold a LOT more stripped actions than they did complete rifles. so unless you are sure, it was probably built by another smith and the quality could be much better or much worse than factory surgeon.

2nd - surgeon was sold some years ago and an awful lot of competitors think less of them now. if you look at the PRS competition, 5 years ago, surgeon dominated. now, they're nearly absent. i'd take an old one over a new one if i had the choice. (afaik, mcmillan builds surgeon rifles now. they used to be built in oklahoma)

3rd - 5 years ago, you could get a surgeon action for $900 off the shelf. Putting a good barrel on it would be $600, plus the cost of bedding, the stock, and the trigger. Even at today's prices of $1300, $600, $1300, $350, I don't see how you get anywhere close to $6000 or even $4000. and the price of used custom bolt guns, especially with suspect configurations, is in the tank. go surf some of the for precision rifle sale forums at places like snipershide or arfcom. lots and lots of deals out there

4th - no idea why someone would put a 308win in an A3 stock, but whatever... at least the barrel life on a 308win makes it HIGHLY unlikely it's burn out. and someone who would pawn a custom rifle probably didn't have the cash to put more than a few rounds through the tube anyway. i'd still want to use a borescope on it before i plopped down a premium for an old used gun. it may have been neglected, and may shoot like crap. do not expect surgeon to do anything about it even if they built it.

5th - BAT makes nice benchrest actions. their tactical stuff still needs some work the surgeon has a rem footprint, but the bolt is one piece, so it's a lot stronger than a rem700. it is made out of a much harder metal, which makes it slicker and stiffer. it has an integral lug, which makes it stronger and also means the tenon is longer for more thread contact than the r700. it has an integral picatinny rail, which means you never have to worry about the screws in the base coming loose and losing your zero. it also has a rail in the lug raceway that keeps it from binding up like a rem700 does when you are running the action fast and put lateral pressure on the bolt.
(not that i'm recommending it... there are better actions now)

if you built a new rifle, you could put the stock you want on it for probably a lot less.
I just built another surgeon, even though i don't really recommend them. i would have bought the GAP tempest or Accuracy International AXMC, but they aren't available in left hand

this was the breakdown for me:
$1295 for the action http://www.otmtactical.com/ACTIONS_c_28.html
(i'd take a really good look at that tempest before getting the 591)
$1325 for the stock http://www.otmtactical.com/KMW-SENTINEL_c_90.html
(no bedding required since that has the mini chassis in it)
$600 for bartlein barrel, chambered in 6.5x47L
$300 for a trigger that is WAY better than a jewel http://www.x-tremeshooting.com/index.php?page=mod-22-order-page

now i'm no rocket scientist, but that looks kinda like $3500 to me, for brand new stuff just like i want it.

 

[Redlg155]

I would see I'd the shop would let you write down the serial#, either that or do the rain man thing and try to remember it. Then contact Surgeon and see If it was sold as a complete rifle or action. Today's price is $1295 for an action.

I wouldn't buy until a I found out if it was a build or factory rifle, and then only with a test fire gurantee. You could get one to your specs for less. Pawn shop math is worse than common core math.

 

[sage5907]

One thing that could help you is to get on GunBroker and look at the prices for Surgeon rifles. Also, the calculations above didn't add in the value of that Leupold scope. Just for the fun of it get on Google and look at Beanland Custom Rifles. Its owned by a guy named Jon Beanland and he sells a lot of barrels that were installed on Surgeon rifles. I have a friend who has a rack of Surgeon rifles and he buys several barrels at a time from Beanland to replace worn out barrels. Both Surgeon and Beanland originated in Oklahoma. If this rifle wasn't assembled by Surgeon it may have been assembled by Beanland. Beanland could maybe tell you if he assembled the rifle based on the serial number.

 

[taliv]

oh my bad. didn't realize the scope and rings were part of that. that would add some to the price. however... why would you want that scope? i.e. a second focal plane tactical scope? if you want a hunting scope, get something different. if you want a tactical scope, get something different.

 

[sage5907]

taliv, please explain a scope with a second focal plain and what makes it bad. I have Leupold Mark 4 M3 scopes on two hunting rifles and haven't noticed any problems but I only shoot out to about 500 yards. The only problem I have heard mentioned by long range precision shooters is that some of the Mark 4 scopes won't repeat when you go back to a settiing. They are a lot cheaper than a $3,500 Schmidt & Bender and I won't put a $3,500 scope on a hunting rifle.

 

[jerkface11]

With the reticle in the second focal plane it can only be used for range finding at one power setting. If it were a first focal plane you could range with it at any power.

 

[taliv]

what jerk said, plus not just ranging. also any hold points for elevation or wind on the reticle. wind's been blowing every time i've shot in oklahoma i'm just shooting at steel, but usually wind up holding quite a bit for wind. more than i'd want to just guess at. especially on an animal.

btw, no need to spend $3500+ on a scope. plenty of $1000-$2000 ones will do as good or better

 

[sage5907]

I'm just a novice at this but if you're shooting at long range wouldn't you set the scope on the highest power where a scope with a second focal plain works. I thought precision long range shooters use a rangefinder anyway. I see people using rangefinders, wind speed calculators and computers to calculate scope adjustment. I would think that the reticle getting larger when the power goes up on a single focal plane scope would be a disadvantage at long range. Help me out?

 

[MCMXI]

I'd buy a Surgeon any day before an Accuracy International or GAP. Surgeons truly are hand made rifles, and the heart of the gun is the action. The Surgeon bolt action is a really fine action.

People who tell you "Accuracy International" or "GAP" buy things by names they recognize. If you asked these people if they've ever heard of BAT Machine rifle actions - I'm sure they'd give you a blank stare - enough said about what they really know.

What a pile of crap! You clearly have no idea about AI rifles. Show me a single rifle on the planet (that doesn't use a crappy barrel nut) where every bolt and barrel are interchangeable and headspace is in spec!! I own three AIs and I do know about BAT. Funny that AIs are used in <deleted> holes all over the world and are beyond battle proven. Not only that, they are superbly accurate and incredibly reliable.

 

[MCMXI]

With the reticle in the second focal plane it can only be used for range finding at one power setting. If it were a first focal plane you could range with it at any power.

The main benefit of FFP has nothing to do with range finding. The main benefit is the ability to make fast and accurate POI corrections using the reticle on any magnification. The second benefit is that the holdovers/holdoffs (using the reticle) are also valid on any magnification.

 

[taliv]

Depends on what you're shooting at. Field of view can be really important when you have multiple targets that aren't next to each other or if your target is moving. A leupold on 24x is like looking through a soda straw. If you're just lounging around plinking sure. Run at max magnification.

 

[sage5907]

MCMXI, that was a good explanation and I understand it now. Each explanation that jerkface started got a little bit clearer. taliv, I also understand the soda straw effect and thanks for the explanation. Since my Mark 4 scopes only go to 10 power it doesn't effect me.

 

[bikemutt]

Well, thanks team THR for the thoughts on the Surgeon. It really doesn't make sense to pay that much for a rifle I'm unsure of who really made it, with a stock I don't really want, and a scope that I wouldn't put on that rifle.

I'll pass on this one.