When did UK/British start losing firearm ownership?

[LexusNexus]

I've always heard that UK laws prohibit firearms, but I remember in WWII it was said that the UK civilians were well armed that if German had crossed channel, they'd face a tough fight. Did many in UK own guns before the anti-gun laws later on, or was it never wide spread (like in US) and limited to upper class shotgun/sporting rifle ownership?

 

[NG VI]

I believe one of the UK posters here said they have been disarmed beginning in the early 1920's.

 

[jimbob86]

They started losing them shortly after they were required to register them..... it works the same way every time: registration, with reassurances that they won't take your guns. Then they ban certain types of guns, with assurances they won't take all your guns. Then they pile regulation upon regulation, making it inconvenient (at first) and downright difficult (later) to comply with the laws. They then villify and marginalize the ever dwindling number of gun owners as "extremists" or "gun nuts". Eventually there aren't enough gun owners to defend their rights at the ballot box(or gun owners with the resources to defend their rights in the courts!), and the "rights"are legislated and regulated out of existence. It is incremental and inexorable, if you do nothing about it. The answer is: make more educated, politically aware gun owners. Ideally, make them out of antis, killing 2 birds with one stone.

Destroy your Enemies! Make Friends of Them! Take a Hoplophobe Shooting!

 

[Cosmoline]

Prior to the 1900's, attempts to introduce gun control in the UK were laughed out of Parliament. I don't know about the lower classes, but among upper and middle class Brits private ownership of firearms including concealed handguns was not that uncommon. I know of several direct real life examples of pre-war Englishmen who owned a lot of firearms with no registration or restriction. TE Lawrence (of Arabia fame) owned a bunch and shot them in his back yard. Gerals Durrel's brother was a genuine gun nut and brought an array of firearms with him to Greece from the UK prior to WWII. And of course in the colonies the Brits were famous for packing everything from huge double guns to Howdah pistols. As far as CCW, the British Bulldog revolver was the first modern cartridge arm designed for concealed carry. There were no laws against it until the first Pistols act, and that wasn't a particularly draconian law. If you want to see how casually the Victorians regarded gun ownership just read some of the Sherlock Holmes stories. Watson and Holmes carried on a regular basis. The readers apparently saw nothing unusual about it. And if nobody carried, who bought all the bulldogs? Not the coppers, for certain.

The pattern starts to shift in the early 20th century as a combination of upper class fears of red revolt and socialist desire to disarm the masses. These two overlapping pressures appear to have been at the root of the growing gun control leading up to WWII. But it wasn't until the socialists took control after Winston got the boot that these laws got real teeth. They've been added to over and over again in the decades since, culminating in the massive bans after the school shooting incident. As the populace has become less and less familar with firearms, it's been easier and easier to whip up their emotions on the matter.

The lesson is pretty clear. It was FEAR that led England to her fate. First fear of the ruling class that an armed populace would attack them, then fear of crime, then fear of firearms themselves.

 

[SDC]

Exactly; during the 1920s, the "upper classes" in England were looking very nervously towards what had just happened in Russia, so they began pushing for gun control laws (particularly directed against handguns, since they were seen to be a favourite of the Bolsheviks), with exemptions for anyone who could get the local constabulary to issue the proper permits.

 

[Run&Shoot]

It was in 1920. The Government was concerned after the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia and stirring in Canada and elsewhere that there may be troubles in the UK from people rising up. That is why by the late 1930s they were asking the US for any arms we could spare for the home guard.

There is a good article here: http://members.aol.com/gunbancon/Laws.html?f=fs

And an extract from the article:

---------------------------
Whilst the pre-war anarchists had not been regarded as a real threat to the government, it is clear that the cabinet thought that Communism may have wider support among the lower classes, the unthinking mass of labour. The cabinet was told:

"A bill is needed to license persons to bear arms. This has been useful in Ireland because the Authorities knew whom was possessed of arms."

The 1920 act was the result. Whilst the Home Secretary Edward Short reassured the House the Bill was necessary to to safeguard the public from crime, the cabinet discussed strafing the working class from the air. Twenty years earlier the government had put its faith and its trust in the decency and patriotism of the working class, exemplified by the founding of the Society of Working Men's Rifle Clubs. In the paranoia of the times, the government felt it could no longer trust the working class and sought to deny the working man access to firearms. At the same time it sought to ensure that:

"weapons ought to be available for distribution to friends of the Government."
------------------

That about sums it up. In 1920 the authorities did not trust the lower classes and thought that weapons belong only in the hands of the friends of the government.

 

[El Tejon]

The Statute of Winchester, 1285.

 

[DrewH]

Interesting question. Didn't Holmes shoot Queen Victoria's initials into the wall of his apartment at one point? And I was reading the original War of the Worlds, written in 1898, and one of the characters had a revolver and used it for self-defense (against hostile humans, not aliens) without much comment.

Still, I get the impression that gun ownership was never as widespread as in America. I would love to see some hard figures for handgun sales in Victorian and Edwardian England.

 

[natjan]

Did many in UK own guns before the anti-gun laws later on

well it depends, in the countryside there are still lots of firearms, ( these are mainly smooth bore shotguns ) i suspect as many as before the HANDGUN ban( thanks tony, ungrit teeth, spit ) class 7 licences are now very rare ( mostly ex soldiers,bodyguards etc have them ) almost impossible to obtain in metropolitan areas, pest control officials use 22lr rifles & i belive must submit a form every month as to how many cartridges they have discharged.

 

[cuervo]

It all started with a license from the post office that was available to anybody that wanted one.

All the Way Down the Slippery Slope
http://www.guncite.com/journals/okslip.html

Here's a PDF version that is a little easier to read:
http://www.ee.ualberta.ca/~kaut/files/okslip.pdf

 

[another okie]

Joyce Lee Malcolm, "Guns and Violence: the English Experience," Harvard University Press, 2002. Great book, as is the author's other book, "To Keep and Bear Arms" about the right to keep and bear arms in the United States.

 

[mgregg85]

They started losing their rights the moment they didn't have a real bill of rights.

 

[RedLion]

Whilst the pre-war anarchists had not been regarded as a real threat to the government, it is clear that the cabinet thought that Communism may have wider support among the lower classes, the unthinking mass of labour. The cabinet was told:

"A bill is needed to license persons to bear arms. This has been useful in Ireland because the Authorities knew whom was possessed of arms."

The 1920 act was the result. Whilst the Home Secretary Edward Short reassured the House the Bill was necessary to to safeguard the public from crime, the cabinet discussed strafing the working class from the air. Twenty years earlier the government had put its faith and its trust in the decency and patriotism of the working class, exemplified by the founding of the Society of Working Men's Rifle Clubs. In the paranoia of the times, the government felt it could no longer trust the working class and sought to deny the working man access to firearms. At the same time it sought to ensure that:

"weapons ought to be available for distribution to friends of the Government."

Just hope no one uses this in a "terrorism" context. Oh wait, it already happened to the 4th amendment.:banghead:

 

[RedLion]

double post

 

[george29]

Think of the great trade off though, no guns perhaps, but all the Marmite and Aniseed Balls to your hearts content (and Scones, Yorkshire Pudding, dried bananas, etc).