My relationship with God is most important, even if I don't always act that way. My duty to my family is second. Both God and my family expect me to act in an honorable fashion, which means lending my support to the cause of true and just freedom. So, there's a nice interplay between my relationships and my rights, as well as the rights of others.
Where does "individual rights" rank in your most closely held beliefs?
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Trisha et al,
I suspect you all thought that I was saying that if you don't come to your respect for others' Rights from the same perspective I do, that you somehow don't have the same Rights.
Not so.
From my perspective, God gave you certain Rights which are yours regardless of where you got them. (Is your eye color less yours, because you got it from your mom?)
From your perspective, I'm probably nuts.
And that's okay; because we have a mutual respect for each others' Rights, we can enjoy a mutually beneficial association. We're going to be walking the same road for a long while, yet.
pax
It rankles me when somebody tries to force somebody to do something. – John Wayne
I suspect you all thought that I was saying that if you don't come to your respect for others' Rights from the same perspective I do, that you somehow don't have the same Rights.
Not so.
From my perspective, God gave you certain Rights which are yours regardless of where you got them. (Is your eye color less yours, because you got it from your mom?)
From your perspective, I'm probably nuts.
And that's okay; because we have a mutual respect for each others' Rights, we can enjoy a mutually beneficial association. We're going to be walking the same road for a long while, yet.pax
It rankles me when somebody tries to force somebody to do something. – John Wayne
Calamity Jane
Member
Such a thoughtful, insightful thread!
As others have said, I cannot separate my belief in Natural Rights from my spirituality or from my devotion to my family and friends. I see my entire set of beliefs as an outgrowth of my core adherence to the principles of Liberty.
In other words, for me, Liberty is the foundation for all else. Spirituality, how/whether one perceives and/or relates to the Divine, is a road which one chooses, and the means by which one chooses is inalienable to our nature as human beings: Free Will.
We choose to treat others well, family and friends and our fellow humans; and there again, inherent in the very fabric of our lives, are the threads of Free Will.
And Free Will is inseparable from Liberty.
Trisha, your posts are absolutely lovely.
As others have said, I cannot separate my belief in Natural Rights from my spirituality or from my devotion to my family and friends. I see my entire set of beliefs as an outgrowth of my core adherence to the principles of Liberty.
In other words, for me, Liberty is the foundation for all else. Spirituality, how/whether one perceives and/or relates to the Divine, is a road which one chooses, and the means by which one chooses is inalienable to our nature as human beings: Free Will.
We choose to treat others well, family and friends and our fellow humans; and there again, inherent in the very fabric of our lives, are the threads of Free Will.
And Free Will is inseparable from Liberty.
Trisha, your posts are absolutely lovely.
Butch
Member
This question can only be answered with another question, by me at least.
What good is anything else if you arn't free to practice what you believe?
What good is anything else if you arn't free to practice what you believe?
rock jock
Member
Perhaps I should have put some more thought into the original question. I would say that with regard to your statement, CJ, that free will is the intangible quality of one following their belief system in the choices they make. This is, of course, unalienable. Liberty, OTOH, is the tangible limits of the choices we allowed to make, within which we can exercise our free will. IOW, we can always exercise our free will even if we are slaves because we still have ability to conduct ourselves in keeping with our belief system. However, if we are slaves our liberty is impeded and we are restricted in what we can actually do. So, in summary, free will determines who we are, liberty determines what we can do (at least IMO). In that light, the question should be, are you willing to give up essential liberty (but not free will) for anything?
Calamity Jane
Member
Okay, I see the distinction you're making.
I will say, along these lines, that I don't think free will is in any way meaningful without essential liberty. Choices a slave makes out of his "free will" would be hollow, at best. To my view, essential liberty and the responsibilities thereof are inseparable from my spirituality and my membership in the human family; so I'd have to answer the question thusly: no, I would not be willing to give up essential liberty for anything, because if I do give that up, I give everything else up, too.
The concept of freedom is simple: give as much freedom to others as you would have for yourself. If freedom, and the choices and decisions it requires, frightens you ("you" meant rhetorically!
), then you will forever be trying to take away freedom from others. And that's part and parcel of so many of our problems today -"leaders" who are threatened by the prospect of citizens having freedom, and "citizens" who are frightened of the responsibilities of freedom and the exercise of that freedom by their fellow citizens.
Adding: I just read this post to my hubby, and he said, "my philosophy, in a nutshell, is this: don't mess with me, and I won't mess with you."
Well, he actually used a more colorful word than "mess."
Sindawe
Member
Speaking only for myself, individual rights and liberties have to come first, since w/o those I am naught but chattel to the wishes and whims of another.
Here's a question for those for whom liberty/individual rights are absolute. Say you have a child, niece, nephew, etc., who is dying. Another person owns the cure/antidote/etc. and is holding it in front of you. This person has an absolute property interest in the item, and is in no way responsible for the illness/affliction/what have you. You can take the item without any violence and then return it.
The question is, would you violate the property right of that innocent person (as well as commit an battery) in order to save the life of another innocent person? Or are property rights more important than life?
The question is, would you violate the property right of that innocent person (as well as commit an battery) in order to save the life of another innocent person? Or are property rights more important than life?
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