Who keeps record of serial numbers?

[Elkins45]

When I sell a gun to a private individual I ask to see his Kentucky driver's license. If it's a gun that I have filled out a 4473 on I will jot down the name in an Excel spreadsheet where I record all my serials. If there's no 4473 with my name on it I don't bother with recording the name but I still verify in-state residency.

There is one instance where the ATF does directly know that you own a gun. If the dealer you bought it from has gone out of business they were required to bundle up all their 4473 forms and send them to the ATF. THey are all probably sitting in some giant warehouse in Virginia somewhere. I have this mental image of the giant warehouse at the end of Raider's of the Lost Ark except filled with filing cabinets.

 

[jj1962hemi]

An angle you should all consider has to due with your CC permits. For instance, if you violate federal law (e.g. transfer a gun to an out-of-state buyer without an FFL doing the transfer), some states will probably revoke your permit. If you have a Utah permit, you must comply with all your state's laws to keep it active. An example would be not having a FOID card in Illinois, getting it revoked, or allowing it to expire. I think a C&R license might also be jeopardized here. A friend of mine wanted to transfer a gun to his dad, across state lines without an FFL involved (crazy that it's illegal), and all I could think about was losing his CC permit, among a series of other things. I can't imagine New York or Massachusetts not having some draconian penalties for not documenting a sale either.

It's the far-reaching implications of all these laws that can trip people up. As somebody said, in Illinois, keep good records or lose your "right" to own.

 

[langenc]

Ive notices Law & Order and CSI talking about "who is it registered to" or some such.

Ive been thinking they are just the 'softening up barrage' for registration. Most viewers and many shooters think all guns are registered cause they hear that so many times.
Here in MI we have handgun registration. I have referred to that in some postings from time to time. Every so often another poster will chew me out that we 'dont have handgun registration'...

We could be getting rid of it but many shooters are ignorant or it dont bother them/both.

 

[larryh1108]

New York state lists any handgun you own on your permit. Most of those shows are in NY. If they recover a handgun and it was registered it is easy to track down the owner. Otherwise I agree with you. TV shows makes it seem like every gun is registered in every state and that is not true.

 

[Warp]

Ive notices Law & Order and CSI talking about "who is it registered to" or some such.

Ive been thinking they are just the 'softening up barrage' for registration. Most viewers and many shooters think all guns are registered cause they hear that so many times.
Here in MI we have handgun registration. I have referred to that in some postings from time to time. Every so often another poster will chew me out that we 'dont have handgun registration'...

We could be getting rid of it but many shooters are ignorant or it dont bother them/both.

Don't worry, you are 100% correct. Michigan has handgun registration.

 

[jhco50]

I do for the simple reason I have decided which guns my kids get when I go to the big shooting range in the sky.

As far as registration, we don't have to register in my state and we have open carry. I had a run in with the night manager about a week ago and he explained I was carrying illegal because I didn't have registration papers. He gave me all kinds of really off the wall information on carrying and I left, wondering if he had even seen a firearm before. BTW, I wrote an email to Walmart and they have yet to respond. Guess they don't want my money either.

 

[CapnMac]

To me, BoS is the same whether you are buying cattle or a gun.
On one side of the transaction, you walk away with a bundle of cash; on the other you are in possession of property brand new to you.

With cattle, they are all in somebody else's brand, until you get them home and make them "yours." With a firearm, you get home, and show your buds, and they ooh and ahh, and your possession becomes known and notorious (meaning "of note," not with negative connotation).

It's a trust but verify thing, really.

And, you cannot do a one-sided BoS.

If you go to the store and buy a chainsaw, they give you a receipt. The store retains a copy of that. You cannot go and say, hey, you owe me a tablesaw, I got this receipt.

And, in these contentious times--having made too many sales over the last two years of involuntary safe-emptying--I would not want/did not want to be rolling down the road with 7 or 8, or 9 hundred dollars in cash, and not have a way to explain why I'm so flush.

But, I'm also old-fashioned in this, too.

 

[Steve C]

Like alsaqr, I keep all my guns on a spread sheet with serial number and description. The information is for me to submit to insurance in case of theft or fire or police to help in recovery. I also keep serial numbers of my electronics and other valuables over $200. I encrypt the file and store it inoff site data storage. On your PC is no help if it gets stolen too and paper can burn in a fire so having several copies helps maintain the record.

The mere fact that a person owns a gun used in a crime is just one of the bits of evidence that may be used in a criminal investigation and prosecution. Its seldom enough to convict anyone. Like Perry Mason says, "Means, motive and oportunity must be proven." The firearm can only provide the "means".

 

[mgkdrgn]

If you bought or sold a gun FTF; that gun is someday used in a crime, recovered and traced to you...

And how, exactly, would that happen, as a FTF sale isn't recorded anywhere?

Again ... way too much TV cop shows.

 

[larryh1108]

If you bought it new and it went thru an FFL they could surely trace it to you if you sold it F2F. If you didn't save any documents and didn't remember they guy's name who bought it, you would be put under a magnifying glass, have to answer about your whereabouts, etc. If your alibi checked out you'd probably be cleared but they can make your life pretty tense if they check out your alibi and it's your job or you were in a compromising situation, etc. Yeah, too many TV shows. I say you keep records to CYA down the road, Why not?

 

[Viottato]

Pennsylvania

The ATF can trace your firearm purchase to the first retail purchaser.

In Pennsylvania, they can trace any handgun to the current owner regardless of how many times it has changed hands.

Pennsylvania requires that all handgun purchasers go to a dealer for the transaction. After paperwork, background check, and a small fee, its all yours.

When you buy a handgun there is a form in addition to the ATF form. This form is how they keep a database of handgun purchases.

The government calls it a Record of Sale. The NRA calls it registration. Its been litagated a couple of times in recent history, but the database remains.

 

[Warp]

Yeah, Pennsylvania, much like Michigan and New York and other locations, has handgun registration.

 

[gym]

All guns I traded or sold, were to legal residents of the stae of FL, who showed ID. and said they were not prohibited from owning a handgun. Many gun shows, don't even require the seller who rents the table to be an FFL. I have bought and sold guns from independant sellers who rent a table at a gun show and sell their private collections. After they leave my hands, once I have confirmed they are residents of the state, "by seeing their ID", I would have no idea what they did or who they sold the gun to.
I have dealt with retired sherriffs, and ex leo's, who sell at shows, for years. You don't really have any control where your gun is going to end up.
I just keep serial of my current guns in case of another hurricane, theft or fire.

 

[il.bill]

Notes from FOIDLAND

As someone posted earlier, I have been exposed to angles and facets of firearm sales/purchase that I never before considered. Thanks to all who have contributed.

I never thought that I would say something like this, but I am actually feeling better about living in Illinois. The FOID card has been a fact of life since I was 15 years old in 1968. The lack of legal civilian concealed carry is not good. The 72 hour waiting period to transfer a handgun on even a FTF transaction is a hassle (though I do recognize the idea of it being a 'cooling off' period).

But...I had no idea that other states are in some ways even more restrictive. A FTF sale required to be processed through a FFL dealer? Making you contact the sheriff for a background check before selling to an individual? State registration of individual handguns? Restrictions on how many handguns you can purchase in a month?

I apologize about the length of this post, but my 59 year old eyes have been opened a little wider. The USA is an interesting country, with "state sovereignty" still meaning something, I guess.

If I did it correctly, attached to this post is a Word.doc file of the Firearm Bill of Sale I use buying or selling. I am not a lawyer, but it makes me feel better knowing I made a good faith attempt to stay within the law in Illinois.

 

[jj1962hemi]

Hey Bill,

Occupied Illinois and the Peoples Republic of Chicago do have good laws in terms of there being no registration. I'll grant you that. I heard on local radio that Illinois is two votes in the state legislature away from sending a bill to the governor for concealed carry. He'll veto it, but it's a good 1st step.

Keep up the good fight!

 

[leadcounsel]

If I sell a gun that I've filled out a 4473, I get a Bill of Sale with signature.

If I sell a gun I bought FTF off the books, then recording their name, state, and phone number after the fact is sufficient for my own records.

As far as tracing the guns, I think it's been well-explained from maker to distributor to end purchaser.

 

[JTHunter]

As another poster commented, it's a good idea to keep a record of the firearm for "insurance purposes".

I take multiple photos of my guns, particularly any special features/marks, and record the make, model, and any numbers found and their location(s) right with the picture (when printed on a Word document).

Make multiple copies - safe deposit box at a bank (or your own safe), at a relative's, and a couple of copies handy in your house.

 

[joecil]

I also keep records of every gun I own including serial numbers, date of purchase, who from, shot count with dates as well as multiple photos of each gun. I print them, as well as back up these records on several computer portable HD. Other than one used gun I have records of every round fired Brand, Type etc including my own reloads as well as how it worked or failed. My records also include all changes be it grips, magazines etc, as well as who they where bought from, when etc. I guess I just anal retentive when it comes to my guns.

 

[Hanshi]

I do but several of my guns came from a custom bp builder and don't have serial numbers.

 

[Ignition Override]

mgkdrgn

My first FTF was an SKS bought behind a McDonald's (spring '08).
The second was selling the Mini 14 in a Kroger front parking lot.

The latest was selling the Mini 30 between Sam's and Chinamart.
No records are kept by me or anybody else.