I just loaded a few rounds of .45 with 7.5 grains of True Blue and 230 Gr. Golden Sabers. I have not shot them yet. I use other powders for light and medium loads, but wanted to try some True Blue for some defensive type 230 Gr. loads.
Winchester 231 just ain't doing it for me in 45 ACP..
- Thread starter uneasy_rider
- Start date
- Status
CZ57
member
Crimp, some folks here believe that I'm secretly on Ramshot's payroll. I'm really just trying to get the word out. True Blue is the next generation for powder inventory simplicity and in some cases, it's hard to do any better. ZIP isn't as flexible, but for .38 Special and .45 ACP accuracy loads, it deserves a look. The bonus is that factory load velocity can be achieved with ZIP. If you need better than that in .45, True Blue will get it done.
marlin.357
Member
Same Results With 231
I've had similar results with HP-38/W231 getting velocities in the 715-730 fps range with both FMJ & plated 230 gr bullets using 5.3 gr of HP-38 & W231 from different lots.
Uneasy_rider, maybe we got bad lots of powder? I don't expect that if I bump up my load by 0.3 gr I'll be getting 100 fps more.
I've had similar results with HP-38/W231 getting velocities in the 715-730 fps range with both FMJ & plated 230 gr bullets using 5.3 gr of HP-38 & W231 from different lots.
Uneasy_rider, maybe we got bad lots of powder? I don't expect that if I bump up my load by 0.3 gr I'll be getting 100 fps more.
Crimp
Member
CZ, I've found True Blue to be the real do-it-all powder. I've even loaded .480 Ruger with it (after talking to Johann at Ramshot) back when I thought it was as slow on the burn-rate chart as is published. I figured it was an AA #7 or Blue Dot substitute. Now, I think it's much faster and fits right near WAP or HS6 on the chart.
I've questioned that though, with Silhouette also right beside, and equal to WAP. It doesn't make sense to me that Ramshot would carry two powders that close in burn rate. I can't get Silhouette locally but always wanted to try it to see. Silhouette seems like it would also be excellent for 9mm, 40 and heavy 45 ACP rounds too.
After shooting today, I believe I'll stick with True Blue & the 230gr .45 ACP. I might kick it up a notch to 7.2gr and see if I still hold a good pattern, but I doubt if I'll go any higher than that with a 230 grainer. I'm guessing that should give me about 830 fps in the 5" bbl.
Anyway, to stay on topic, I think 231 is a satisfactory powder for .45 and I've been using it for the last couple years, mainly with 185 grainers. Before that, I was running HS6 with the .45 auto and had excellent results with it in all bullet weights.
I've questioned that though, with Silhouette also right beside, and equal to WAP. It doesn't make sense to me that Ramshot would carry two powders that close in burn rate. I can't get Silhouette locally but always wanted to try it to see. Silhouette seems like it would also be excellent for 9mm, 40 and heavy 45 ACP rounds too.
After shooting today, I believe I'll stick with True Blue & the 230gr .45 ACP. I might kick it up a notch to 7.2gr and see if I still hold a good pattern, but I doubt if I'll go any higher than that with a 230 grainer. I'm guessing that should give me about 830 fps in the 5" bbl.
Anyway, to stay on topic, I think 231 is a satisfactory powder for .45 and I've been using it for the last couple years, mainly with 185 grainers. Before that, I was running HS6 with the .45 auto and had excellent results with it in all bullet weights.
Crimp
Member
Walkalong, did you notice Ramshot's latest 4.2 data takes True Blue up to 7.8gr with a 230 FMJ? I'm guessing that chunk of lead would really sizzle!
Last edited:
texjack
Member
hodgdon "clays"
I use Hodgdon "clays" with 230g fmj's. I load mine for IDPA & IPSC shooting with a min. 165pf. With 4.1gr of "clays" I get 750fps from my 5" 1911.I would suggest 4.3-4.4 gr to reach 800fps. This stuff is accurate and clean, the best I have found for the 45acp.
I use Hodgdon "clays" with 230g fmj's. I load mine for IDPA & IPSC shooting with a min. 165pf. With 4.1gr of "clays" I get 750fps from my 5" 1911.I would suggest 4.3-4.4 gr to reach 800fps. This stuff is accurate and clean, the best I have found for the 45acp.
cherryriver
Member
Winchester Super Target.
Four and a half grains for "major", near five for hardball.
I will guarantee that it will give less recoil at equal velocities than 231 or Titegroup or Unique- I tried it, with three different shooters and alternated loads. (A bunch of other powders, too.)
It's the modern, ball-type replacement for Bullseye, which is the civilian version of the powder the .45ACP was designed around. 1911s love it.
And it makes less racket, too.
I promise.
Bill
Four and a half grains for "major", near five for hardball.
I will guarantee that it will give less recoil at equal velocities than 231 or Titegroup or Unique- I tried it, with three different shooters and alternated loads. (A bunch of other powders, too.)
It's the modern, ball-type replacement for Bullseye, which is the civilian version of the powder the .45ACP was designed around. 1911s love it.
And it makes less racket, too.
I promise.
Bill
I use 5.2gr of 231 with a 1.260" COL, Berrys 230gr plated bullets, CCI or WLP and get about 740 ft/sec. This is just over the 165 PF and for matches I'd bump it a bit just to make sure.
I must ask: Why do you want 800+ ft/sec? I have found my loads to be plenty accurate and even with 60 ft/sec less... the bad guys still won't outrun them.
I must ask: Why do you want 800+ ft/sec? I have found my loads to be plenty accurate and even with 60 ft/sec less... the bad guys still won't outrun them.
cherryriver
Member
I make up my hardball equivalent loads (830fps) with about five grains of WST or Bullseye to duplicate the shooting effect of the Speer Gold Dot personal-protection load I use in my guns for non-range purposes.
CZ57
member
Crimp, I agree with you as far as placement on most burn rate charts. This is a common anomaly when you look at similar powders. If you research the closed bomb test procedure, you find that the burn-time is really limited to the internal space of the closed bomb. When you get to individual cartridges, things can and do change. Another good example of this is AA#5.
The powder I tend to rate True Blue closest to is V-V N340, but HS-6 is very close. WAP is Silhouette and vice versa. That can be confirmed by Ramshot. Winchester dropped WAP, Western Powder Co. (Ramshot) obtained the rights to distribute and the data that was previously worked up for Winchester is used by Ramshot.
Here's something I hope will help: although they appear close in burn rate, I believe you'll find Silhouette better suited to use in high pressure cartridges like 9mm, .38 Super, 9 X 23mm, .40 S&W and 10mm and be a bit less adaptable for lower pressure cartridges, although there is .45 ACP data. And, performance will be a bit like HS-6, in that higher velocity loads can be achieved, and it is worth considering for heavy weight loads like 230 gr. JHPs. True Blue has an extremely uniform and gradual pressure rise making it more consistent, even in lower pressure cartridges. Ramshot once provided pressure curve analysis to indicate this. I've developed +P .45 loads for both the 185 and 230 gr. Golden Sabers. Accuracy is very good.
231 is a standard bearer for .45 ACP. If you like the performance it yields, or need a little more with something that burns cleaner, ZIP may be the alternative. 231 and ZIP are rated very close in burn rate. Sometimes back-to-back, but ZIP is capable of obtaining higher velocity at similar pressure when compared to 231, and the ZIP charges will be slightly higher. I don't know the exact bulk density of 231, but for ZIP it's 780 grams per liter and I suspect that 231 isn't far from that. Decent case fill for chargeweight.
The powder I tend to rate True Blue closest to is V-V N340, but HS-6 is very close. WAP is Silhouette and vice versa. That can be confirmed by Ramshot. Winchester dropped WAP, Western Powder Co. (Ramshot) obtained the rights to distribute and the data that was previously worked up for Winchester is used by Ramshot.
Here's something I hope will help: although they appear close in burn rate, I believe you'll find Silhouette better suited to use in high pressure cartridges like 9mm, .38 Super, 9 X 23mm, .40 S&W and 10mm and be a bit less adaptable for lower pressure cartridges, although there is .45 ACP data. And, performance will be a bit like HS-6, in that higher velocity loads can be achieved, and it is worth considering for heavy weight loads like 230 gr. JHPs. True Blue has an extremely uniform and gradual pressure rise making it more consistent, even in lower pressure cartridges. Ramshot once provided pressure curve analysis to indicate this. I've developed +P .45 loads for both the 185 and 230 gr. Golden Sabers. Accuracy is very good.
231 is a standard bearer for .45 ACP. If you like the performance it yields, or need a little more with something that burns cleaner, ZIP may be the alternative. 231 and ZIP are rated very close in burn rate. Sometimes back-to-back, but ZIP is capable of obtaining higher velocity at similar pressure when compared to 231, and the ZIP charges will be slightly higher. I don't know the exact bulk density of 231, but for ZIP it's 780 grams per liter and I suspect that 231 isn't far from that. Decent case fill for chargeweight.
Loading manuals have changed so much over the last forty years, you have to use them as a guide. And go test your own ammunition and see how it works.
In my pistols, 5.5 grains W231 with a 230 gr GI FMJ gives me the velocities I want. I have posted data from two different M1911's, one having a 230 LRN. The velocities are close enough, and this is not the only data I have on this load, that I have high confidence that it will provide similiar performance in other pistols.
Kimber Custom Classic
230 LFN 5.5 grs W231 Mixed brass CCI300 primers
30-Dec-04 T = 60 °F
Ave Vel =797.8
Std Dev = 32.2
ES 154.2
High 858.2
Low 703.9
N = 32
230 FMJ RN (GI) 5.0 grs 231 R-P cases WLP
10-Jul-05 T = 84 °F
Ave Vel = 755.7
Std Dev =17.23
ES 64.39
High 784.8
Low 720.4
N = 22
230 FMJ (GI) 5.5 grs W231 Mixed Brass WLP
OAL 1.265" taper crimp .469
4-Sep-05 T = 92 °F
Ave Vel =782.5
Std Dev =22.64
ES 87.93
High 822.9
Low 735
N = 28
Colt Series 80 M1911
230 FMJ GI 5.5 grs W231 Mixed Military WLP
taper crimp 0.469", OAL 1.265"
9-Oct-05 T = 64 °F
Ave Vel =792.4
Std Dev =15.87
ES 70.15
High 825.5
Low 754.9
N = 24
cottontoptexan
Member
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2004
- Messages
- 85
Ww231
I have been loading the 45 ACP for over 15 years using 5.8 grains of WW231 , seating to an over all length of 1.255 , using a Lee Factory Crimp die set at .470 at the crimp. They have chronied around 830 FPS. The feed well with no problems in 6 different 1911 type pistols. The Speer No. 11 Reloading manual lists a maximum of 6.2 grains of WW231 using the TMJ bullet. It is a stiff load which duplicates military ball i believe. It may be a little high by some but still a low pressure round by all measures. Hope this helps.
I have been loading the 45 ACP for over 15 years using 5.8 grains of WW231 , seating to an over all length of 1.255 , using a Lee Factory Crimp die set at .470 at the crimp. They have chronied around 830 FPS. The feed well with no problems in 6 different 1911 type pistols. The Speer No. 11 Reloading manual lists a maximum of 6.2 grains of WW231 using the TMJ bullet. It is a stiff load which duplicates military ball i believe. It may be a little high by some but still a low pressure round by all measures. Hope this helps.
Lloyd Smale
Member
aint nothing that cant be done with the acp with bullseye and unique on the bench.
ForneyRider
Member
.45ACP from Hodgdon data website.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
(maximum loads)
6.8gr Longshot 908fps
6.2gr WSF 910fps
7.5gr SR 4756 960fps
I think the 950fps is pretty close to manaufacturer's specs on 230gr +P loads in .45ACP.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
(maximum loads)
6.8gr Longshot 908fps
6.2gr WSF 910fps
7.5gr SR 4756 960fps
I think the 950fps is pretty close to manaufacturer's specs on 230gr +P loads in .45ACP.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
