Winchester Train and Defend TRAIN powder???

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98s1lightning

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Anyone know what Winchester is loading for powder in their train and defend TRAINING ammo? I shot some 380 and they burned so clean that at a glance you cant even tell they have had powder burn in them. I didn't even tumble them to reload.

I want to get my hands on whatever this powder is it will make life so much easier!!!!!

The Winchester white box (altogether different) burns dirty.
 
Factory ammo uses powder made to their specs by the powder manufacturer. You probably won't find it in retail canister powder.
You could look through the data of various pistol powders to find those that perform well in the velocity range of your factory ammo, then work up your load to match. Hey,. that's the essence of reloading in a nutshell!
 
More than likely they're using Autocomp. Very clean burning and easy to match factory 380 loads.
 
I was just searching around and see W-W offers a WINCLEAN 244 powder that is advertised as clean burning. It could be that too.
 
CCI primers and accurate powder burn cleanest in my experience. CFE Pistol is a powder I just bought a pound of today as well hoping for clean.
 
CCI primers and accurate powder burn cleanest in my experience. CFE Pistol is a powder I just bought a pound of today as well hoping for clean.

CFE Pistol is leading my list of favorite powders/loads in 380. 3.8gn and a 95gn CRN is the most accurate.
 
Yep, usually they don't use a canister grade powder in factory ammo. Most factory ammo is loaded with bulk powder that is made to their specifications and each lot of powder is tested to determine the desired loading. It can be very frustrating trying to find a canister powder that works exactly like the factor loadings.
Lafitte
 
I picked up a box of Winchester "D" from Walmart the other day and decided to dissect one for proof of powder. Definitely Autocomp and a max load of 4.3 grains according to Hodgdon's site.




weight.jpg powderWin.jpg powderAC.jpg
 
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Cool! I wrote winchester asking about it, they told me Hodgdon deals with their powders. I forwarded same email to Hodgdon via W-W powders I think it was.

Now that your confirming autocomp a hodgdon powder, I would have to agree with you.

Thanks!
 
I picked up a box of Winchester "D" from Walmart the other day and decided to dissect one for proof of powder. Definitely Autocomp and a max load of 4.3 grains according to Hodgdon's site.

Nothing definite about it, as pointed out above. Looking similar doesn’t mean the same. In the example, W-231 looks about the same as Tightgroup, but it isn’t the same powder.

AB21FE13-8735-4D7A-BC61-179AE6E8AB17.jpeg
 
Relax folks, nobody is telling someone to use some arbitrary weight of an arbitrary powder. HODGDON lists 4.3 GRAINS of AUTOCOMP as a max load for a 98 grain FMJ. Same weight as Winchester T&D.
 
Okay, so I picked up a pound of Autocomp and had time to do an actual comparison between it and the factory powder. My Bersa Thunder with a 3.5" barrel was used for the test.

I pulled apart 5 Winchester cartridges and replaced the factory powder with 4.3 grains of Autocomp. These, along with 5 factory Winchester rounds were fired from a rest, across a chronograph. The Autocomp rounds averaged 991fps (18fsp ES) and grouped just under 1" at 10 yards. The factory rounds averaged 928fps (89fps ES) and grouped under 2" at 10 yards. Because there was a difference of 63fps between average velocities, my first thought was that the factory powder and Autocomp were in fact quite different. However, since I didn't verify the powder charge of each factory round, and there was a rather large variation between velocities, I decided to repeat the test again with an exact factory powder weight.

This time I pulled apart 8 factory rounds and weighed each powder charge. I was surprised to find such a wide variation from highest to lowest. The factory rounds varied from 4.1 grains up to 4.4 grains with an average of 4.2 grains. This was obviously why I saw a higher ES in the first test. After seeing this, I suppose some of us reloaders are overthinking our process. I usually shoot for charge weights to 1 tenth accuracy but maybe I'm being too anal.

I then reloaded 4 rounds of each, Autocomp and factory powder, to exactly 4.2 grains. Again, I fired these across the chrono at a target set out to 10 yards. The Autocomp rounds this time averaged 958fps. The factory rounds averaged 943fps. Both had an ES of under 20fps and both grouped at about 1".

Now, I won't say that the factory powder is actually Autocomp, but I will say that they're definitely close in performance. So close in fact that if the OP is wanting to duplicate the factory ammo then Autocomp would be a great choice.

Since making this comparison, I decided to test my favorite 380 reloads again, this time side by side with Autocomp. Up till now my most accurate 380 loads have been with HP38 and CFE-Pistol powders. I found that Autocomp matches both of those equally, no better, no worse. Where Autocomp exceeded those powders is in the +P ranges. Using AC, I can now get 1000fps with a 90gn XTP from my Pico while maintaining great accuracy.


These are the two targets from the test using 4.2 grains of factory powder and AC. Ignore the .22lr hole, that was a friend being a smart-a$$ with a BuckMark before I took the pic.

winpowder.jpg Autocomp.jpg
 
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Anyone know what Winchester is loading for powder in their train and defend TRAINING ammo? I shot some 380 and they burned so clean that at a glance you cant even tell they have had powder burn in them. I didn't even tumble them to reload.

I want to get my hands on whatever this powder is it will make life so much easier!!!!!

The Winchester white box (altogether different) burns dirty.

Winchester uses lead-free primers in their Train rounds. That's why it's so clean.

The powder might or might not make a difference, but the primer can make all the difference by itself.
 
Why would Winchester Ammunition use Winchester powders today? They no longer have anything to do with eachother.

Most ammo is produced with a custom blend powder. The ammo company puts in an order with set parameters and the powder manufacturer fills the order.

I remember reading a while back someone on this forum too apart some Speer GDHP ammo from 2 different lots. One lot used a dark ball powder while the other was loaded with a flake powder. You can not guess by looking and it's probably not powder that we can get.
 
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