Winter War Shoot

[Cosmoline]

Well it was suitably cold today, hovering from 5 to -5 f. And with the snow deep but hard I took the bike for a spin to the range. I had some fine pictures to show including one of an icicle that bridged my upper and lower eyelids, but the "tough" Olympus which is supposed to be fine at cold temps took a powder and is refusing to function. I believe the last digital display was something like "TOO COLD. I AM OUT OF HERE SUCKA."

My M28 is on the repair block at the moment getting new stock fitted because the original bicycle-ski is too fragile for rough use. So I took my trusty M39, 1970 vintage. Not exactly a Talvisota weapon, but the receiver is ancient so who knows. It performed without a hitch, though I did screw up a charger load due to a wool glove snagging the clip. Did prone, sitting, kneeling, off hand and repeated till I was out of ammo at 50 and 75 yards. Tons of fun, and quite challenging. With winter gear on and a balaclava it's tough to get a good cheek or shoulder weld. It's also tough to get a feel on the trigger. I was wearing special gloves with the finger tips removed, but it was too cold to have any bare skin on the steel so I had to wear a liner underneath. As a result I couldn't feel the trigger very well and mistimed about one out of eight shots. Nothing too wild, but I was out of the 9 and 8 ring.

Even under a roofed shelter, with modern poly blend clothes and top of the line boiled felt Norwegian ski booties it's a challenge to shoot in those condition. It's a challenge to do anything. If you want a very small taste of what those guys went through, or for that matter what our guys went through at Bastogne or in Korea, just pick a good cold snowy day and walk or bike all or part of the way to the range. Even ten miles of walking in the snow will give you a little sampler of how much more difficult the cold makes any movement. Then imagine having no warm bed to return to, no heating station at the range to take refuge in, seriously substandard winter gear, and targets shooting back at you. It really boggles the mind. Even after my little excursion today every muscle hurts. Those that I can feel, that is!

To top it off I got a little combat simulation at CostCo on the weekend. I feel like I need someone on the fifty anytime I venture in there for bulk tuna.

I also performed a snack experiment, in the interest of science, to see which snack truly works best in subfreezing temps. The winner by a long distance were Walker's Scottish pure butter shortbread cookies. They're basically pure fat with some sugar and flour, so they remained soft and easy to digest even below zero. The regular candy bars were steel ingots by that time.

 

[Carne Frio]

Thanks, but no thanks. I had to change a fan belt
at -30 one night back in the 1970's. It is good to test
your skills and gear out when it's cold. It takes a lot
of perseverance.

 

[ants]

Winter snack...

When you said:

The winner by a long distance were Walker's Scottish...

My brain didn't get beyond Walker's Scotch.
When I read it the second time, I saw the reference to 'cookies'.


Now, this 'snow' about which you speak.
I live in Las Vegas, and I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about.
But today's 63 degree weather was pretty cold, wasn't it. Brrrrr.

 

[caribou]

Wish I were down there with ya, sounds like a Blast

I havent fired a Mosin in 3 weeks....its getting itchy, this trigger finger of mine....

 

[Cosmoline]

Well you shoot in REAL cold. Any tips?

 

[Dr.Rob]

My 'winter gear' is pretty simple:

Wool clothes, a rifle with a winter trigger, a variety of gloves a camo oversmock. Can be useful for a yeti hunt or just goofing off outdoors.

 

[Ignition Override]

Have you guys in central or nw Alaska ever tested an M-1 Garand in the winter, just to compare how it might have operated in se. Belgium and Luxemburg during 'the Bulge' in late '44, with its record low temps?

Incidentally, just a reminder that F Company was there, along with many other units which were basically left out of the Hollywood movie limelight.

 

[caribou]

Hmmmmmm in general terms my best hints are such....

Rule #1 in Arctic Cold, DO NOT wear cotton glove liners while shooting a rifle.....they have Zip for grip and your rifle will most likely kiss your nose when shot "like summer time"~~LOL!!~~ Saw that happen with a 12 gauge a couple weeks back ~~LOL!!~~

Leather gloves are best. Wooden stocks do not frostbite your hands, even bare, while composite and plasict will quickly and easliy.
Thats one more reason to leave the wood stocks and hand guards as issued, and prehaps why armys designed them that way.

Clean all metals and oil, then wipe clean, use as such. If you bring a rifle in fromfreezing weather pull the bolt and warm it and the rifle by a heat source, clean and dry it, it will gather moisture from the air and the 'sweat' will rust you up. Guns that are to be used in cold conditions should be stored in the cold. Lots use locking sheds here or the storm shed on the front doors entrance, is the more common place.
I use corrosive ammo, so when I bring in my rifle, I dump boiling hot water down the bore and the heat itself drys the water from the hot metal and I flush out the corrosive salts, its quick and easy, and I have no rusting problems.


While actually out hunting at the end of the day, I wipe my bore with my issued rod and brush, washing out as much of the corrosive salts that my corrosive priming paints it with. I dip it in my gas tank and stroke the salts and crap out, and then wipe oil from my engine 2 stroke resevoir, all quite quickly while getting settled in for the night.
The cleaning rod also helps when snow has drifted in or been shoved down your bore while rideing and stalking.
If rideing asnowgo, wear the rifle slung across your chest, not your back, as a wreck can break your back, and on your chest, you can roll with it.

If its REALLY cold, Dont stick yer tounge to the barrel.....

 

[caribou]

I would use an M-1 Garand for hunting, for sure. I did a couple times, though I gave away the rifle. The national Guard kept the M-14 untill the late 80's because of its range and reliability. M1 was the same I belive.

 

[henschman]

We have a Winter War shoot at one of our local ranges, but they do it from bench rests... which I think is crap. Oh well, its a club with a bunch of old men who probably can't get into field positions... what can you do. I hear they don't have a problem with young bucks coming out and shooting from prone with a sling though. I might have to give it a try.

 

[68wj]

Next time you want to combine a winter snack experiment with a journey to the range to know how it felt in Korea, leave a handful of tootsie-rolls on the back porch overnight and eat them on on your way.

 

[sixgunner455]

dang. I love Arizona.

I've lived in the cold, and went shooting one day after a snowstorm in northern Utah. The wind was blowing, my gear was inadequate, but dang it, I drove up the mountain, walked the mile into the range, and I was gonna SHOOT!

I lasted 2, maybe three magazines, reloaded my pistol and walked back to the car. Sure was glad that Mitsubishi had a good heater!

Arizona. Yeah, our deer are tiny, but ... cold is ... COLD.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Great post and thread!

It would be interesting to get together with a bunch of guys using a variety of WWII period weapons and try them out in subzero conditions.

In the film Talvisota they made a point of showing the Finns replacing their bolts with those taken from captured Russian Mosins. I think the idea was that the looser fit didn't make them as prone to freezing up in dirty battlefield conditions.

 

[Cosmoline]

I thought that was a reference by the filmmaker to the specific problems of the M27's bolt, which originally had an ill-advised modification where the bolt had two wings designed to slide into corresponding slots. Needless to say it made an otherwise reliable rifle jam-prone and was soon dropped. The M28 and M28/30 didn't have that problem.

But it's hard to tell. The translation in the subtitles is sketchy at best in that film, and I think someone who knows Finnish might catch the meaning better.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I thought that was a reference by the filmmaker to the specific problems of the M27's bolt, which originally had an ill-advised modification where the bolt had two wings designed to slide into corresponding slots. Needless to say it made an otherwise reliable rifle jam-prone and was soon dropped. The M28 and M28/30 didn't have that problem.

That certainly makes sense. I'm not educated enough on MN's to tell the difference between an M27 and an M28, or even if the difference can be noted externally.

 

[henschman]

Yeah, I usually try to get out to do some shooting whenever we have an ice storm here in OK. I have shot plenty in single digit temperatures but never in anything below zero.

It is definitely nice to experience how everything works in your cold weather gear. I actually found that using a sling, I could settle down into a more stable position, because of all the padding. Kind of like having a shooting jacket on. And recoil wasn't as noticeable. I know what you mean about your gloved hands slipping around on the stock though... it wasn't so bad with my M1A with checkered plastic stock, but my M1 was tougher to keep ahold of!

I have not tried hiking AND shooting in such weather, though. Maybe if we catch a storm this year I will give it a shot!

BTW, how did you fare in the competition?

 

[caribou]

Yep, with cotton gloves, the tighter you grip, the more you slip.......
Oh, ya I should add, corrosive primed ammo is 100% in DEEP cold weather where remington and a other commercial non corrosive will dud about 10% at -30 and colder.

Seen that plenty, so its a consitteration as well.

 

[Cosmoline]

I really like the surplus trigger finger mitten/gloves with wool liners and a leather outer shell. But those aren't so great for below zero. I'm looking for a glove that combines sufficient air space, good insulation and a little gap I can stick my trigger finger through without exposing the skin directly to cold. I'm going to do some experiments along these lines this winter.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Hmmm, the coldest I've shot in was probably in the 20s, though I've (unsuccessfully) deer hunted down to about 11*F.

OTH, I participated in a Kalashnikov match 2 or 3 years ago when it was in the low-mid 40s while it was raining. And the range was covered in a mix of snow, slush, and ice water that about a foot deep in places, and we had to run through it. Waterproof boots become buckets when you step in water deeper than they are tall.

Shooting in adverse weather conditions is a whole 'nuther ball of wax than shooting when it's warm and sunny.

 

[_N4Z_]

I'll toss in on "the coldest" conditions I've ever had to shoot in.

Army basic - Jan/Feb 1986, Ft. Sill OK. Temps in the high 20's, wind blowing 20's steady, sleeting, rain, some spotty snow. We marched 10 miles, full pack, and spent a couple two or three nights in this crap in shelter halfs, ....and qualified with our m16a1's. Think we had one guy manage expert, out of 75 recruits. Ya, awesome. I remember we had little icicles forming in the rear peeps... Good training drill sergeant. We did have one building with a little propane stove going in it.

I have a huge respect for any soldier that has had to fight under any such condition.

All these years later, having experienced that little taste, I have never once had the urge to revisit that kind of fun.