Swampman
Old Fart
This.
The only difference is that I'd initially use the powder in cast bullet subsonic .308 or 30-06 loads and fire them through a Remington 700 or '98 Mauser.
If that went well, I'd move on to testing in handguns.
Would you shoot this powder?
- Thread starter wankerjake
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The only difference is that I'd initially use the powder in cast bullet subsonic .308 or 30-06 loads and fire them through a Remington 700 or '98 Mauser.
If that went well, I'd move on to testing in handguns.
Catpop
Member
For yor consideration:
If it's sealed, then you have "somewhat" the same assurance of buying it off the shelf in a store. Notice I said "somewhat", not 100%.
If not sealed, even though you know the person and their attention to detail, you have no assurance of what occurred when even he was not guarding his powder stash. Even he may have got it from an estate sale or inherited from an outside source that was not as adherent to safety as he was. He may have put it on the shelf for later testing like some have mentioned and just not got around to testing it.
Final Answer: If the chain of custody is even remotely unknown or broken you put yourself at some % of risk using an unsealed powder. You have to weigh the odds! Do I feel lucky today?
Merry Christmas to all! Catpop
If it's sealed, then you have "somewhat" the same assurance of buying it off the shelf in a store. Notice I said "somewhat", not 100%.
If not sealed, even though you know the person and their attention to detail, you have no assurance of what occurred when even he was not guarding his powder stash. Even he may have got it from an estate sale or inherited from an outside source that was not as adherent to safety as he was. He may have put it on the shelf for later testing like some have mentioned and just not got around to testing it.
Final Answer: If the chain of custody is even remotely unknown or broken you put yourself at some % of risk using an unsealed powder. You have to weigh the odds! Do I feel lucky today?
Merry Christmas to all! Catpop
rskent
Member
I would use it, very cautiously. Light loads to start and chronografing to check for any
inconsistencies for sure. I don’t think I would just chuck it without checking it out first.
inconsistencies for sure. I don’t think I would just chuck it without checking it out first.
I voted in the sniff, look, and test. But I would want to try it over a chrony first.
The clumpy powder would probably be fertilizer. Unless you weigh each throw. And then, if it had any moisture present, it would not be an accurate load, I suppose.
But it is a call you have to make for yourself. Be safe!
The clumpy powder would probably be fertilizer. Unless you weigh each throw. And then, if it had any moisture present, it would not be an accurate load, I suppose.
But it is a call you have to make for yourself. Be safe!
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wankerjake
Member
Interested by the results, I expected more votes that were flat out against it. Glad to see the majority of people are willing to give it a go. I don't ever recommend doing something you aren't comfortable with and if you don't understand the why or why not of what you are doing then you should probably just not do it.
As I alluded to, I'm in the middle of testing and plan to shoot it. I don't like the clumps although I have read a number of accounts of that say it's fine. Most likely I'll shoot that powder last if at all. But I am going to test it.
Preliminary testing was great. All powders went bang appropriately. Also as I mentioned in the original post, I'm not completely blind here. For all the "you can't be 100% certain what's in it" crowd I say ok, but I can look at it and compare it to known powder and get a pretty good idea. Your average handloader doesn't just throw a bunch of Unique in a can labeled Bullseye and call it good. Since I have a can of modern bullseye, I felt confident that's what was in my open cans. Looks the same (distinctive look), smells the same (distinctive smell), let's see if it shoots the same. The green dot doesn't seem to have green flakes like the new stuff but from Ben Amonette from Alliant: With old powder the color ID grains sometimes become obscured by the graphite coating on the rest of the powder. If you look at the powder closely under a bright light, you might see faint color ID grains. The powder looks and smells great, again gonna go out on a small limb and test it as green dot. Loading with 38 special data and fired in a Ruger SP101 357 Magnum revolver.
The green dot had a few variations in metering so I loaded up 3.2-3.4gr under a 158gr LSWC. Old Alliant data I have says 3.5gr max for 38spl. These shot great, consistent accuracy and recoil, this is already a good load. I will load up a larger batch and try again.
I loaded 5 shots from each container with 3.2gr bullseye. I broke the bullseye chunks in the red can apart and it metered fine. All of these loads fired fine and were consistent. Accuracy seemed so-so and my go-to load with bullseye is 3.5gr and a 158gr LSWC so I think we can try that next. I wasn't on sandbags or anything, just messing around and paying attention to differences in report and felt recoil. I will likely move up to 3.5gr and compare to new bullseye powder and scrutinize between canisters. If one is different I'll probably use it as fertilizer.
Overall, this is likely all still good powder. Part of the fun of reloading is testing things and I like shooting old stuff. It's nostalgic and I like having it on my bench. Sure I can put new powder in old cans, but I can use old powder safely too with a little effort.
As I alluded to, I'm in the middle of testing and plan to shoot it. I don't like the clumps although I have read a number of accounts of that say it's fine. Most likely I'll shoot that powder last if at all. But I am going to test it.
Preliminary testing was great. All powders went bang appropriately. Also as I mentioned in the original post, I'm not completely blind here. For all the "you can't be 100% certain what's in it" crowd I say ok, but I can look at it and compare it to known powder and get a pretty good idea. Your average handloader doesn't just throw a bunch of Unique in a can labeled Bullseye and call it good. Since I have a can of modern bullseye, I felt confident that's what was in my open cans. Looks the same (distinctive look), smells the same (distinctive smell), let's see if it shoots the same. The green dot doesn't seem to have green flakes like the new stuff but from Ben Amonette from Alliant: With old powder the color ID grains sometimes become obscured by the graphite coating on the rest of the powder. If you look at the powder closely under a bright light, you might see faint color ID grains. The powder looks and smells great, again gonna go out on a small limb and test it as green dot. Loading with 38 special data and fired in a Ruger SP101 357 Magnum revolver.
The green dot had a few variations in metering so I loaded up 3.2-3.4gr under a 158gr LSWC. Old Alliant data I have says 3.5gr max for 38spl. These shot great, consistent accuracy and recoil, this is already a good load. I will load up a larger batch and try again.
I loaded 5 shots from each container with 3.2gr bullseye. I broke the bullseye chunks in the red can apart and it metered fine. All of these loads fired fine and were consistent. Accuracy seemed so-so and my go-to load with bullseye is 3.5gr and a 158gr LSWC so I think we can try that next. I wasn't on sandbags or anything, just messing around and paying attention to differences in report and felt recoil. I will likely move up to 3.5gr and compare to new bullseye powder and scrutinize between canisters. If one is different I'll probably use it as fertilizer.
Overall, this is likely all still good powder. Part of the fun of reloading is testing things and I like shooting old stuff. It's nostalgic and I like having it on my bench. Sure I can put new powder in old cans, but I can use old powder safely too with a little effort.
Reefinmike
Member
You used that bullseye? 
I guess if you are only loading a couple boxes at a time it would be ok to try it but I certainly wouldn't ever load up a bunch of ammo to sit on. You stated the powder smelled "off", is discolored(clear from picture) and is clumping. Those are all signs the powder needs thrown out in the yard! You are saving a penny per round by using old questionable powder. Considering your primer and bullet are 10-13 cents a load, its just not worth the penny saved!
From the picture, that bullseye certainly has some discoloration and also looks like there is some graphite coated stuff in there that gives some flakes a shine. All the bullseye I have dealt with is dull like unique and that greendot.
Old powder has been documented to spontaneously combust.
I was one of the two who voted "maybe the greendot but not the BE"
If you are really pinching pennies, that green dot can be used but I would leave a large safety margin ie 38spl loads in a 357 gun and check loads over a chronograph. Me personally, I would burn it all in one big great pile and post the video here. Its not worth the trouble of dealing with 25-40 year old propellant.
I guess if you are only loading a couple boxes at a time it would be ok to try it but I certainly wouldn't ever load up a bunch of ammo to sit on. You stated the powder smelled "off", is discolored(clear from picture) and is clumping. Those are all signs the powder needs thrown out in the yard! You are saving a penny per round by using old questionable powder. Considering your primer and bullet are 10-13 cents a load, its just not worth the penny saved!
From the picture, that bullseye certainly has some discoloration and also looks like there is some graphite coated stuff in there that gives some flakes a shine. All the bullseye I have dealt with is dull like unique and that greendot.
Old powder has been documented to spontaneously combust.
I was one of the two who voted "maybe the greendot but not the BE"
If you are really pinching pennies, that green dot can be used but I would leave a large safety margin ie 38spl loads in a 357 gun and check loads over a chronograph. Me personally, I would burn it all in one big great pile and post the video here. Its not worth the trouble of dealing with 25-40 year old propellant.
Blue68f100
Member
I've only had 1 powder that I have had to throw out over 4 decades of hand loading. It was some old W748 powder in the metal cans, $6.30(?) when I bought it in the late 70's. The can had the rusty flakes and the power was clumping. These are the early signs of the powder breaking down. It still smelled ok though, I became fertilizer. I still have a old can of OLD Herco, that has the push to open top, $2.60, from the early 60's. The seal has never been broken. Is it good, I have no idea. The can is rusty on the outside.
I won't vote, since those don't cover my thoughts well enough. The dot powders do have colored dots, which can be distinguished from each other. I have some old dot powders from the same era, and they work just fine. The colored dots are not real easy to make out, but they can be, and they are a good indication if the powder is correct and not mixed. So with a little help from a friend, you could verify the dot powders, and then test appropriately. We all know Bullseye is a fast powder, so if you load up something like 9mm to low-mid Bullseye specs, it should be easy to verify the powder works as it should. If you look across the 9mm loads for Alliant/Hercules powders using 125gr FMJ, Red Dot has the lowest max, but that charge will work fine for everything up to Unique, and probably provide enough push to clear the barrel with Power Pistol, Herco, and Blue Dot. You could verify if it's Blue Dot though, and avoid taking chances with it. That's the only one that makes me nervous.
Where it gets difficult, is the non-dot mid-range to slow powders. If a fast powder gets mixed in, there's going to be trouble.
If there are non-Hercules powders in the group, its going to take more effort to verify safe loads to start with.
So in my mind, there is a way to safely verify and use old powders, given some restrictions. Rifle powders in general, and old rifle powders especially, carry a much higher risk, and need to be treated accordingly. The slightest question or doubt - lawn fertilizer.
Where it gets difficult, is the non-dot mid-range to slow powders. If a fast powder gets mixed in, there's going to be trouble.
If there are non-Hercules powders in the group, its going to take more effort to verify safe loads to start with.
So in my mind, there is a way to safely verify and use old powders, given some restrictions. Rifle powders in general, and old rifle powders especially, carry a much higher risk, and need to be treated accordingly. The slightest question or doubt - lawn fertilizer.
Wreck-n-Crew
Member
I voted no because i wouldn't use it personally. Risk vs reward for me would be cost of powder vs something bad happening.
I understand i may be overthinking the risk. However for me personally there are so many things that can go wrong in reloading that i would rather not add risks to the equation. Especially at the cost of powder thats cheap enough ( relative to cost per pistol round) and much easier to find today.
I have no experience shooting old powder with signs of aging. I suspect i never will either. Again, just my personal view.
Good luck and continued success!
I understand i may be overthinking the risk. However for me personally there are so many things that can go wrong in reloading that i would rather not add risks to the equation. Especially at the cost of powder thats cheap enough ( relative to cost per pistol round) and much easier to find today.
I have no experience shooting old powder with signs of aging. I suspect i never will either. Again, just my personal view.
Good luck and continued success!
Jim Watson
Member
I think you are doing OK. As said, I would not stockpile a lot of ammo loaded with old powder. Load it as you use it and be prepared to discard the remainder if it sours.
I once got a partial keg of 452AA from a neighbor's estate. No doubt, he had no other Ball powder in the house. Shot great in pistol, wish it were still made. But I always preferred 700X for shotgun, .
I once got a partial keg of Green Dot from an ex-reloader. No doubt, the green flakes were visible. Shot fine in 9mm but I had no reason to look for more.
I once got a partial can of AA5 from an estate sale. Hey, it was little black balls. Shot OK but did not care enough to buy more.
I once got a full can of old stock H240 in a store. That stuff was HOT. Much hotter than the "10% faster than 2400" conventional wisdom. After one batch of sticking cases from a starting load of 2400 less 10% in .357, I trashed the rest, unwilling to experiment with it.
I once helped friends clear out an elderly reloader's shop after he went off to the nursing home. We dumped all the partial cans of powder in a 12 lb keg, took it to the range and shot it with a tracer. The forty foot plume of flame was pretty and there was no old or doubtful powder left to worry about.
I once got a partial keg of 452AA from a neighbor's estate. No doubt, he had no other Ball powder in the house. Shot great in pistol, wish it were still made. But I always preferred 700X for shotgun, .
I once got a partial keg of Green Dot from an ex-reloader. No doubt, the green flakes were visible. Shot fine in 9mm but I had no reason to look for more.
I once got a partial can of AA5 from an estate sale. Hey, it was little black balls. Shot OK but did not care enough to buy more.
I once got a full can of old stock H240 in a store. That stuff was HOT. Much hotter than the "10% faster than 2400" conventional wisdom. After one batch of sticking cases from a starting load of 2400 less 10% in .357, I trashed the rest, unwilling to experiment with it.
I once helped friends clear out an elderly reloader's shop after he went off to the nursing home. We dumped all the partial cans of powder in a 12 lb keg, took it to the range and shot it with a tracer. The forty foot plume of flame was pretty and there was no old or doubtful powder left to worry about.
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wankerjake
Member
Yes agree with all, caution is warranted and I won't be loading a stockpile with it. This will be for ammunition to be used in the near future.
I said it didn't smell just like most other powders, but when I compared it to my 5 year old or less jug of bullseye that I purchased new, it smells ok. Powders don't all smell exactly the same. Clumping is something that happens and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with going bad. The red flakes are present in new product bullseye. The red can has more red flakes, but not any red dust which is what most people associate as bad. Also, an early test didn't show a discernible difference in accuracy or recoil but more testing would be needed. Again, I feel like I'm out on a small limb here and honestly I hardly need it so I may not test much from the red can. If any of them are much different from the known product I have, it's this one. It may become fertilizer or disposed of creatively.
Also I'm not doing this to save money. When I'm done selling what I don't want out of this lot, all this powder is free including new stuff, including primers and brass and bullets. I'm not saving anything by shooting this. It's more of a principal thing of not wasting something that doesn't need wasted and working up something to see if it will function or not. For the same reasons reloading is fun, seeing if this powder is still good is also fun.
I said it didn't smell just like most other powders, but when I compared it to my 5 year old or less jug of bullseye that I purchased new, it smells ok. Powders don't all smell exactly the same. Clumping is something that happens and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with going bad. The red flakes are present in new product bullseye. The red can has more red flakes, but not any red dust which is what most people associate as bad. Also, an early test didn't show a discernible difference in accuracy or recoil but more testing would be needed. Again, I feel like I'm out on a small limb here and honestly I hardly need it so I may not test much from the red can. If any of them are much different from the known product I have, it's this one. It may become fertilizer or disposed of creatively.
Also I'm not doing this to save money. When I'm done selling what I don't want out of this lot, all this powder is free including new stuff, including primers and brass and bullets. I'm not saving anything by shooting this. It's more of a principal thing of not wasting something that doesn't need wasted and working up something to see if it will function or not. For the same reasons reloading is fun, seeing if this powder is still good is also fun.
Now yer talking. I certainly may end up tossing some of it, that would be a fun way to do it.
Salmoneye
Member
I'm still finishing a can of Red Dot from the early 60's...
At one point in the late 90's, I did a few 'tests' with a new plastic jug, a 70's vintage cardboard tube like yours, and the 3# can in my picture...
Over a chrony they were statistically damn close in .38SPCL, and light .357 Mag loads...
Do what you feel comfortable with...
At one point in the late 90's, I did a few 'tests' with a new plastic jug, a 70's vintage cardboard tube like yours, and the 3# can in my picture...
Over a chrony they were statistically damn close in .38SPCL, and light .357 Mag loads...
Do what you feel comfortable with...
Reefinmike
Member
I must be buying the wrong bullseye because I have never seen red flakes in it. I have bought ~ 20 pounds of the stuff within the past 5 years. I know that IMR 700x, 800x and the alliant line of dot powders have color coded indicator flakes in the powder. My bullseye always looks like this:
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Carl N. Brown
Member
Some people collect old powder cans, so it would not be a total loss if you decide the powder cannot be salvaged.
Even if they are not colelctible, they are nostalgia pieces.
Even if they are not colelctible, they are nostalgia pieces.
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wankerjake
Member
This is my jug, purchased new and made Feb 2009. It looks the same as the stuff in my old 1960's can. Maybe you get some rust colored flakes after air exposure? I dunno but I seriously doubt my can from 2009 is bad:
By some miracle I still have all my fingers and hit what I was aiming at with the test loads, and this was the expected results of 70+% of the people who voted in the poll.
Reefinmike
Member
That 09 can looks a little bit different than than mine, some flakes have a slight greenish hue but in my opinion the old bullseye looks way different, the reddish brown flakes are easy to see. It also could be the camera playing tricks? You mentioned having some color blindness as well? I wouldn't consider what you are doing unsafe by any means but I personally wouldn't mess with it. Whatever floats your boat
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wankerjake
Member
I do have a red green color blindness which doesn't mean I can't see green or red, just that I see it differently than you. I'll get my wife out here at some point. I may not be seeing the difference. From the red can yes, it's darker red. I don't like it the more I look at it, may just scrap it. The first picture in my original thread compared to 2009 picture, and looking at that powder and my 2009 powder in person, look about the same to me. I'll ask my wife about it.That 09 can looks a little bit different than than mine, some flakes have a slight greenish hue but in my opinion the old bullseye looks way different, the reddish brown flakes are easy to see. It also could be the camera playing tricks? You mentioned having some color blindness as well? I wouldn't consider what you are doing unsafe by any means but I personally wouldn't mess with it. Whatever floats your boat
JimKirk
Member
Put a small line of the new and the old powder on a sheet of really white copy paper side by side ... then take a good photo(with good light) and post it ...
It is hard to compare it with it in a metal container as the powder can reflect the surrounding colors/hues ...
It is hard to compare it with it in a metal container as the powder can reflect the surrounding colors/hues ...
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