WW II and protective clothing

[4v50 Gary]

In going over Bruno Sutkus's book, Sniper Ace, about his fighting on the Eastern Front in 1944. In it he writes on pages 43-44:

"[W]hile observing the terrain, I was detected by a Russian sniper. Under my camouflage jacket I was wearing a thickly-layered protective waistcoat that was relatively bullet-proof at 400 metres - I decided to risk receiving a shot to the chest. His bullet hit me there fair and square. I feigned dead and kept my sights on the enemy sniper. Once he eventually left his hiding place, I shot him from behind."

Waistcoat is generally a vest (18th Century). What type of vest could do this? A steel breast plate like that worn by Soviet mine removal soldiers would be heavy and cumbersome - especially for a sniper.

 

[Bwana John]

Russian ammo especially 7.62 x 54r (what I would assume a "Russian sniper" would be using at 400 yards) was known to be especially suspect, with even black powder being used. And the PPSh submachine gun round might bounce off at 400 yds.

In the Korean war US soldiers spoke about the quilted cold weather jackets the Chinese wore stopping 30 Cal M1Carbine rounds.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I remember reading an account of a German soldier who was fleeing being shot numerous times with a .30 carbine. It knocked him down. All the bullets lodged into his rolled blanket.

 

[Slamfire]

In going over Bruno Sutkus's book, Sniper Ace, about his fighting on the Eastern Front in 1944. In it he writes on pages 43-44:

Waistcoat is generally a vest (18th Century). What type of vest could do this? A steel breast plate like that worn by Soviet mine removal soldiers would be heavy and cumbersome - especially for a sniper.

I am skeptical that anyone wearing a regular, even heavy clothing, would be bullet proof at that distance, to a WW1 era cartridge. I recall setting up a surplus Swedish helmet at 400 yards.It looked like this.




I shot at it with a 303 Brit and a 6.5 Swede. Military ball ammunition, and every round penetrated both sides of the steel helmet. I have a very difficult time believing that anyone could take a chest shot with a 7.62 X 54R , wearing clothes, and only clothing, and not have the thing go right through clothing and body.

Even if the sniper was wearing some sort of armored vest, he was taking a big risk, because, what if the Russian sniper missed, and hit his head!? That would have been a big whoopsie.

Maybe the author had been watching too many Western movies.

 

[Tommygunn]

Russian ammo especially 7.62 x 54r (what I would assume a "Russian sniper" would be using at 400 yards) was known to be especially suspect, with even black powder being used. And the PPSh submachine gun round might bounce off at 400 yds.

In the Korean war US soldiers spoke about the quilted cold weather jackets the Chinese wore stopping 30 Cal M1Carbine rounds.

That was proven to be a myth during the Korean War.

The Japanese Army had limited use of crude body armor among officers in W. W.2. It was just crude plate metal. It would stop .45ACP, but not .30 Carbine or .30-'06.

I suppose Russians could have used something similar.

The allied bomber crewmen had what were called "flak jackets." They were better than nothing.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Well, the Soviets seemed to have issued protective armor that worked reasonably well....





Google SN-42 steel bib.

 

[HB]

He was likely hit with a ricochet or similar. I also am very skeptical that a direct hit would stop in common clothing.

That said, weird things happen. There is a documented instance where an American soldier was hit directly with a RPG rocket that didnt detonate and both EOD and a surgeon removed the live warhead from the poor guy.

 

[indy1919a4]

wow, unaware of these Russian bibs before,, A link I found with some armored bids & photos...

https://gmic.co.uk/topic/15604-soviet-steel-bib-sn-42-with-fighting-damages/

another nice link with some penetration info

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/steel-bib-soviet-wwii-body-armor.html

 

[CapnMac]

The allied bomber crewmen had what were called "flak jackets." They were better than nothing.

Those, IIRC, were 16-18ga plates sewn into padded cotton carriers. They were meant to stop low velocity <200fps fragments, rather than actual bullets. Literally the fragments from anti-aircraft bursts.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I'm wondering if it could also be a mistranslation.

 

[Slamfire]

Well, the Soviets seemed to have issued protective armor that worked reasonably well....

View attachment 857670

View attachment 857671

Google SN-42 steel bib.

Two millimeter thick?! Anyone want to stand behind a 2mm thick plate of sheet metal and be shot with an 7.62 x54R ? If a sheet of paper is 0.1 mm, then that breastplate is the thickness of 20 sheets of paper.

I'm wondering if it could also be a mistranslation.

Could also be a fish story designed to make the teller more heroic in the eyes of the reader. Happens all the time. Anyone remember M. Larry Lawrence? He is the only person I am aware to be dug up and removed from Arlington Cemetery. And for good cause: he was quite the rascal. He was one of the richest men in America, a Clinton donor, and I am certain his Ambassadorship to Switzerland was a quid pro quo. He regaled people with his tales of heroic, self sacrificing service in the Merchant Marine. Turns out he was in College at the time.

 

[lemaymiami]

My first reaction is that the writer is lying - great entertainment - but nothing you could rely on.... There is one other possibility to consider - and that is battlefield improvisation... Not unknown for one soldier or other to pick up and use equipment from a fallen soldier on the other side (everything from greatcoats on down). In the field - making do or getting an advantage by using the other side's gear isn't a bad idea - as long as no one mistakes you for the other side....

Deliberately exposing yourself to the other guy's fire... not something I'd ever even consider... I was never a combat type (just a pencil pusher in the rear during a short tour in 1971...) - but on the street as a cop - I always wanted as much advantage on my side of the ledger as possible. Your first job - over everything else... is to be able to go home at the end of each shift....

 

[Slamfire]

In the Korean war US soldiers spoke about the quilted cold weather jackets the Chinese wore stopping 30 Cal M1Carbine rounds.

I have a first hand, second hand story on this. A Vietnam company commander I knew, his Dad was in the field, in Korea, just south of the Chosin reservoir, in the front lines as a company commander, as the Chinese Army pushed the US forces, after the Chosin reservoir. I think he was there all the way through the third battle of Seoul. Korea Dad had survived the wave tactics of the Chinese in the most horrible weather imaginable. I asked his son about the Chinese being "bullet proof", due to the cold, he asked his Dad, and Dad answered "hell they were hopped up!, they were all hopped up!"

Which was explained to me, that the Chinese troops the UN forces faced were drunk, senseless to pain, and extremely determined, but that they were not bullet proof. Our troops faced very brave men who were not going to quit till they killed an imperialist. It is highly likely the Chinese knew they were going to die, drank themselves into a great mood, before charging into battle. But they were not bullet proof. Nor were they quitters.

 

[FlSwampRat]

He was likely hit with a ricochet or similar. I also am very skeptical that a direct hit would stop in common clothing.

That said, weird things happen. There is a documented instance where an American soldier was hit directly with a RPG rocket that didnt detonate and both EOD and a surgeon removed the live warhead from the poor guy.

Bet that left a mark! Imagine years later trying to get guys at the bar to believe that actually happened do ya!

 

[herrwalther]

Chinese being "bullet proof", due to the cold, he asked his Dad, and Dad answered "hell they were hopped up!, they were all hopped up!"

Same in major Iraq battles (ie Fallujah) and Afghanistan to a point. There is an incredible morale effect on an enemy when the body refuses to die regardless of how much damage you do to it. My current read House to House by MOH recipient David Bellavia goes into detail in a few chapters.

As far as bullet proof coats, maybe they were lined with metal to make themselves more penetration resistant. Chain mail with a modern application almost.

 

[FL-NC]

Same in major Iraq battles (ie Fallujah) and Afghanistan to a point. There is an incredible morale effect on an enemy when the body refuses to die regardless of how much damage you do to it. My current read House to House by MOH recipient David Bellavia goes into detail in a few chapters.

As far as bullet proof coats, maybe they were lined with metal to make themselves more penetration resistant. Chain mail with a modern application almost.

Everyone I saw hit in the "5 zone" dropped fast, and didn't last long if they lasted at all.

 

[Palolosj]

I did learn something from reading that book. Apparently the best ammo issued was DWM and stuff from Serbia.