X Failure to stabilize?

[wwace]

Read the following story and see if you would agree. I think the X bullet failed to stabilize causing the keyhole wound , I am thinking a branch isn't going to deflect a 375 with a less than 50 yards shot. A branch that size would be very visible when aiming for that shot anyway. Maybe it tipped a bone causing the deformed tip the hunter described. Regardless I think the hunter was unaware of what really happened and was lucky to recover that buffalo without a charge or losing him.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/cape_buffalo_hunt.htm

 

[rcmodel]

A branch inside 50 yards can and will destabilize any bullet in any caliber ever made.

A branch that size would be very visible when aiming for that shot anyway.

So would a truck hood.
But I have had two friends shoot holes in thiers with scoped rifles.

Brances & saplings within 15 - 20 yards of a scope might well be so out of focus as to be invisable. Especially with a huge buff in front of you.

rc

 

[buck460XVR]

Very colorful story. I really liked the part where HE advises the PH on a new strategy. Don't know how one could tell from after removing a bullet from a Cape Buff that some of the deformation was caused by a small unseen branch en route. Borrowed guns with borrowed bullets often lead to less than stellar shots. I think that's all we can read outta this. Funny how when folks make a bad shot, if it isn't due to poor terminal performance from the bullet, it's because of a deflection.

 

[wwace]

A branch inside 50 yards can and will destabilize any bullet in any caliber ever made.

So would a truck hood.
But I have had two friends shoot holes in thiers with scoped rifles.

Brances & saplings within 15 - 20 yards of a scope might well be so out of focus as to be invisable. Especially with a huge buff in front of you.

rc

I've seen a 30-06 bullet drill right through a tree on its way to the animal before, I don't remember the distance or anything, but the tree wasn't all that far away, I just thought it was funny at the time. MY dad shooting a caribou FTW.

As the story goes I think that the shooter was not as good a marksman as he thought and I don't think he hit any branch.

 

[allaroundhunter]

I've seen a 30-06 bullet drill right through a tree on its way to the animal before, I don't remember the distance or anything, but the tree wasn't all that far away, I just thought it was funny at the time. MY dad shooting a caribou FTW.

Seeing it once is not definitive. It has been proven that even small branches can deflect a bullet.

As the story goes I think that the shooter was not as good a marksman as he thought and I don't think he hit any branch.

You are barking up the wrong tree. The bullet did not keyhole mid-flight on its own.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

I had a barnes bullet act real strangely once too. I was crop damage deer shooting and had a deer out at about 150 yards. i was using a 300wby with a 180tsx. I hit the deer right on the center of the sholder. The deer ran in kind of a circle for about a 100 yards and dropped down and stuggled for a couple minutes and died. When it was running it looked like it was dragging the bottom part of the front leg on the side i shot. I didnt think much of it and gutted the deer and through it on the truck with the others we had shot that day. When i got home and skinned it there was no exit wound at all. The left leg where i had shot was all bloodshot so i just hacked it off and threw it away. For days it kind of bugged me about what had happened. It was to late to really check as the coyotes had gotten the gut pile and the carcaus. I do know for a fact though that even that front shoulder didnt have an exit wound in it. The threory i came up with is that bullet hit the shoulder bone and deflected and ran right down the leg and broke the leg and came out there or was lodged there. I even called barnes and talked to a tech there. He didnt argue the fact that it was possible. He never said it but i kind of got the feeling from the conversation that it wasnt the first time hed heard of this happening. My guess is i hit the bone at a slight angle and the bullet didnt expand. I had other problmems that year with 25 cal tsx bullets in the 2506 and 257. They just didnt seem to open enough to anchor animals. But i would never have guessed id ever have a failure with a .30 cal 180 out of a weatherby on a little whitetail doe. I guess the thing is that if you shoot enough deer strange things will pop up once in a while. Could be i could shoot a 100 more deer with that load and never see it again but between that and my luck with the .25s ive about lost confidence in tsx bullets.

 

[jmr40]

ive about lost confidence in tsx bullets.

The older TSX bullets were better in calibers larger than .30 from what I've read. The newer TTSX bullets seem to work just as advertised as long as they are still moving at about 2000 fps when they impact. Slower and you don't get the expansion. I don't think they are a good extreme long range bullet because of that. I don't think they are needed for smaller game such as deer with typical deer appropriate chamberings because much cheaper conventional bullets perform just as well.

Where they shine is when using chamberings that are borderline for the game hunted. They would be my 1st choice for deer with a 223 or elk/bear with a 308, 7-08, 243 etc. At close to medium range they give much better penetration and as long as they impact at 2000 fps or faster will give good expansion as well. I'm sold on them for specfic uses. Just don't think they are needed as an all around bullet.

I've seen a 30-06 bullet drill right through a tree on its way to the animal before,

Did the bullet continue on a straight path and cleanly kill the caribou? A blade of grass can cause a bullet to deflect enough to change direction and keyhole into a target. If the animal is only a few feet from the object it struck the bullet has not had time to deflect very far off course and it may still perform just fine. The farther the animal is from the source of the bullets deflection, the greater the chance of a miss or keyhole.

 

[wwace]

Did the bullet continue on a straight path and cleanly kill the caribou? A blade of grass can cause a bullet to deflect enough to change direction and keyhole into a target. If the animal is only a few feet from the object it struck the bullet has not had time to deflect very far off course and it may still perform just fine. The farther the animal is from the source of the bullets deflection, the greater the chance of a miss or keyhole.

The tree was about 15 or 20 yards from the muzzle and the caribou was some 150 yards away, dead. Can't remember where it was it and I sure as heck don't know where the old man was aiming.

 

[wwace]

Seeing it once is not definitive. It has been proven that even small branches can deflect a bullet.



You are barking up the wrong tree. The bullet did not keyhole mid-flight on its own.

As the monometal bullets are much longer for the weight compared to conventional bullets it takes more revolutions (higher twist) to stabilize them than a conventional bullet. I have not idea what the twist rate is in a Remmy 375, I do know however it is a proven fact that longer bullets require more twist. For example an AR with a 1 in 9 rate may not stabilize bullets over 62 grains in weight, for 69 and 75 grain match bullets you will need at least 1 in 8 or 1 in 7 twist.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Yes, heavier bullets require a faster twist. But it would be a consistent thing if the bullet was not stabilized out of his gun. Not just something that happened on this one shot.

He had sighted his rifle in at home, and had again in Africa. That shows that the rifle/cartridge combo was not the problem. The round hit a branch, which led to the round being destabilized and the keyhole wound.

for 69 and 75 grain match bullets you will need at least 1 in 8 or 1 in 7 twist

You don't need a 1:8 or 1:7 to stabilize these rounds, but it is a good recommendation. My 1:9 AR does the job just fine with 69 gr rounds. Test what you want to use, and see if your gun will handle them.

The tree was about 15 or 20 yards from the muzzle and the caribou was some 150 yards away, dead. Can't remember where it was it and I sure as heck don't know where the old man was aiming.

Lucky as all get-out.

 

[interlock]

bullets don't react to animals in the same way they do in ballistic gel. there are lots and lots of contributory factors to this. about a fortnight ago i shot a broadside roe buck with a 7mm08 hornady interlock. it was only about 110 yards away. my shot placement was about 3 inches further back than i would like... through the liver.... the animal reacted to shot in the typical gut shot way. it walked slowly hunched up towards cover... but it was carrying a back leg. it turns out the bullet entered the ribs on one side went through and did not exit the skin on the far side. it made a big nasty wound channel rearwards and went through the haunch and exited about 90 degrees from the entry wound. I shoot lots and lots of deer all year round (because i live in england). I suppose i get this performance in about .5 % of shots. i have kept faith with the interlock. this has happenned with gamekings and with speers hot cor as well. A few years i shot another deer, again a broadside in the pocket shot at about 70 yards and the bullet exitted the front of the deer and hit another deer almost perfectly in the atlas joint killing both stone dead.

 

[buck460XVR]

He had sighted his rifle in at home, and had again in Africa. That shows that the rifle/cartridge combo was not the problem. The round hit a branch, which led to the round being destabilized and the keyhole wound.

From what I read, he used the PH's gun and his buddies reloads for the first Buff. That's why I said in my first post ''Borrowed guns with borrowed bullets often lead to less than stellar shots." Using a strange gun under periods of stress and making a bad shot, to me is a more likely scenario than what he wants us to believe. He states later on in the story his own gun arrived in time for him to shoot his second Buff. The only proof we have at all that his round was key-holing when it hit the first Buff is the writers own testimony. I took that with a grain of salt along with his statements about how he advised the PH on how they should conduct their hunts and how he could tell by the distortion of the bullet(that came outta a Cape Buff!) that it had hit a small branch on the way to the target. Sorry, but the thick skin and body mass of a Cape Buffalo would obscure all distortion created by glancing off a small stick. I think it's just a way for the author of this story to give us a colorful explanation of a bad shot. As I said before, most hunters always have a excuse for making a bad shot, nature of the beast. None of us wants to say "I got excited and pulled it". But IMHO, this is all that happened.

 

[allaroundhunter]

From what I read, he used the PH's gun and his buddies reloads for the first Buff.

I just went back and re-read the beginning and you are absolutely right.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I am thinking a branch isn't going to deflect a 375 with a less than 50 yards shot. A branch that size would be very visible when aiming for that shot anyway.

Incorrect.

I've had a 300 gr .375 bullet deflect and hit an impala completely sideways after is came in contact with the tops of some long grass on a 60+ or - yard shot. It doesn't matter how big the bullet is if it hits something, anything, en route it's going to do weird things.

As a matter of fact take a look at this..

This bull charged me from about 15 yards. He was behind a screen of brush, vines thin branches ETC. If you look at the right ear where I have it circled you can see a perfect out line of a totally sideways 500 gr .470NE Barnes solid that deflected and was spinning end over end when it hit the ear and then burned up the side of his neck raising a nasty red welt which is also circled.

So don't think that a heavy round won't be deflected by brush. Also when hunting cape buffalo it's often done in extremely thick brushy country where you are taking shots through "holes" in the brush and it's extremely common for a bullet to deflect on a unseen stick or vine en route to the buffalo. It happens all the time.