Yet anothe Colt 38 Rimless question!

[Wilbur747]

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I've been trying to research a gun my father passed down to me with no luck. I'm not so much concerned as to the value (there is pitting) but more about it's specific model, type (military, sporting, etc) and when it was made. I too have a Colt. 38 Rimless with the following markings;

Right side --

AUTOMATIC COLT
CALIBRE 38 RIMLESS SMOKELESS

Left side--

"BROWNING'S PATENT" COLT'S PATENT FIREARMS MFG. CO
PAT'D APRIL 20, 1897 HARTFORD, CONN. U.S.A.

The grips are wood with no checkering or Colt symbol. Just smooth wooden grips. They appear to be orginal and not some handcarved copy and according to my grandfather, they are original.
The rear sight lifts up and retracts. The rear slide groves are much shorter than simliar 1902 guns as they are 1/2 inch long.
The clip is nickel plated (though peeling) with the following on the bottom;

PAT'D SEPT 9 1884

The serial number is 18XX

Any info will help. I've been able to get info that's close to the model, but nothing with my gun's specifics. If any other info is needed, please let me know.

 

[Birdmang]

Links don't work.

 

[Old Fuff]

This is a long shot, but I'll make it anyway.

Colt's first Browning-designed pistol was the Model 1900.

It fired a semi-rimmed .38 cartridge that was identical to today's .38 Super round, but much lower powered. Incidentally, don't fire this pistol with anything - it could be dangerous. Magazine capacity is 7 rounds and the pistol’s overall length is 9 inches, with a barrel 6 inches long. Stocks were generally made of plain walnut. Between 1900 and 1903 Colt made about 3, 500 of them.

One of the features that denoted the Model 1900 exclusively was a rear sight that also served as a safety by blocking the firing pin. Lifting or pivoting the sight upward would make the pistol ready to shoot. This sight/safety did not prove to be popular, and many guns were later returned to the factory to have the sight replaced with a conventional one. As a consequence, all Model 1900 pistols are valuable collectors items, but those that still have the first style of rear sight are worth considerably more.

To add: Nickel plated finish, if it's original, would be very rare. Colt advertised this to be a military pistol, although at the time no military service had adopted it. Thus most of these guns were blued. However the plated finish could be had on special order.

What you apparently have is an example of the first semi-automatic pistol produced by Colt, and the first one designed by Browning that was manufactured in the United States – and in unaltered condition.

 

[Wilbur747]

Sorry about the links...





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I'll try to get some pics uploaded.

I never fire any antique weapons passed down to me...for safety and for preservation purposes. I have many historical weapons that my ancestors passed down and I try to preserve them as much as possible.

My dad and grandpa stated they never fired it for safety reasons. Grandpa said he bought it from some guy who was 'allegedly' in the Chicago mob way back when...take that for what it's worth, there's no documentation, so I chalk it up to wishful thinking.

I've tried to research the model 1900 with no luck. No pics matched my gun. I actuated the 'safety sight' to see if the hammer falls short of the firing pin if the sight was up vs if the sight was down. I did notice a difference. If Colt considered this a safety...well I can see why nobody trusted it!

As far as the magazine, I'll post a photo of it. The nickel finish is well worn. The pistol isn't nickel plated, just the magazine.

Is there any way I can find out what year this pistol was made? I've tried Colt, but again to no avail.

I don't plan to sell the gun. I love it for it's history...if I can find it!

 

[Wilbur747]

more pics...







Here's the pics of the magazine...(I hope this works!) It's night time here in AZ so I'll try to post some bright day pics if need be.

 

[Old Fuff]

Your pictures confirm that it is a Colt Model 1900 pistol. Given the value of the pistol (at least $2,000) combined with the family history; I suggest you have it lettered. The fee is pretty stiff (around $100) but Colt will go back into their records, find that particular gun, and then write you a letter confirming what it is, what the original finish and stocks were, along with other details and best of all - to what distributor, dealer or individual the gun was shipped, and on what date. Having the letter will increase the value of the gun over the charged fee, and document it for future generations in your family. Call Colt's customer service department and tell them you want to apply for an "historical letter." Folks in customer service don't always know a lot about older guns. The company historian does.

Unfortunately it is not safe to shoot, even with correct ammunition. The pistol is held together by a key or wedge at the front of the slide, and if it should fail the slide will come back and hit the shooter between the eyes.

The pistol is rare enough so that you don't find much information, and fewer photographs. Many of the photographs show the pistol with the later modified rear sight. You can get copies of Browning's patent that covered the design and showed it's features. There may be a reference book that covers the whole series of Colt .38 Automatic pistols. Otherwise they only represent a chapter in those covering all Colt pistols. A lot of the information covers the several hundred that were sold to the U.S. Army and Navy to test. The main purpose behind the whole project was to get the pistol adopted as an official U.S. military service pistol. It represents the beginning of a development program between John Browning and Colt which ends when the 1911 .45 is adopted. Note the patent date on the magazine (1884) and consider when Browning started thinking about box-magazine pistols.

 

[Jim Watson]

Proofhouse.com says Colt 1900 sn 1800 was made in 1902, but ColtAutos.com says 1901 which makes more sense considering the 1902 models were in the works.

Pictures of several different guns and even a copy of the instructions are at:
www.coltautos.com

The gunzine article in Shooting and Fishing, April 19, 1900 says of the sight safety:

"If it is not desired to fire all the cartridges, the hammer can be lowered and left at half cock*, the safety left lowered or raised as desired. It is believed that most of those who use this pistol will, when they cease firing, remove the cartridge from the chamber, replace it in the magazine, leaving the chamber empty. They will make it a habit, when ready to fire the arm, to cock the piece by drawing the slide to the rear with the left hand, as shown in illustration, this being done quicker than one can cock the hammer with the thumb."

*The 1900 had a full length firing pin and could not be carried with the hammer all the way down in "condition 2" like later models. The sight safety was hardly in a position for easy "condition 1" carry, so you were left with "condition 3".

 

[Old Fuff]

A lot of data on Colt and Smith & Wesson serial numbers v. when a gun was made are based on shipping, not production records, because no production records are known to exist. Add to this the practice of both companies to use up older parts even as new ones were introduced, and it can be see why there is confusion as to exactly when a particular gun was made. In this instance it is known that Colt was shipping Model 1900 pistols as late as 1903, although it is likely they were assembled at an earlier time.

Generally knowing when a gun was made is less important then knowing when it left the factory - because that's when its history begins.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, and I think in a gun this distinctive, the $100 for a factory letter stating when and where shipped would be worthwhile.
http://www.coltsmfg.com/archive.aspx

By the way, pictures at Coltautos.com show that smooth wood grips and a nickel plated magazine in a blue gun are correct. Which I had wondered about.

 

[Old Fuff]

At the time, Colt was using a bluing process (called "charcoal blue") that involved enough heat to anneal the lips of the magazine. Thus they were nickel-plated. Later they developed a way to heat-treat the lips after the magazine box was blued, and then dipped the top in acid to remove any slag.

They used the plain wood stocks while a design and mold were worked out to make black hard rubber grips which were introduced in or about 1902, and remained standard on all the .38 automatics until the last ones were discontinued in 1929.

 

[searcher451]

Note to Fuff and Jim: You guys are great and a wonderful and valued resource for all members of this forum. Many thanks for sharing what you know. It's always an open history lesson.

 

[Wilbur747]

I knew I came to the right place!

Thanks so much for the help! I knew this was the right place to go!

Jim, thanks for the quote from the Shooting and Fishing magazine. Are there any original copies available that you know of? It would be a great 'side piece' for the gun. I too wondered about the magazine since it didn't seem to match the finish of the gun, the same with the grips. I've seen re-manufactured replacement grips (read second-hand cheap whittled knockoffs), but these seem to be professionally made.

I wasn't sure if the pics were clear enough, especially the ones of the magazine. I know my dad refused to fire it and as far as I know Gramps never fired it either. Gramps died a couple of years ago so I won't be able to verify the alleged mob ownership. Supposedly some low ranking member of some Chicago-based mob owned it (circa 1915-1925) but this remains unverified and thus can't be included in the history. It's still a neat possibility that raises my curiosity! It may turn out to be nothing other wishfull thinking but it's a good story for the kids! Gramps knew the name of the previous owner but never told dad. I recieved the gun just prior to my dad's death.

I will pursue getting it lettered. I agree it may be worth it.

Old Fuff, you mentioned it may be worth approx 2K, I have some misginings given the pitting (more on the right side than the left). There's also a ding on the left side of the frame. I don't know if the pics showed it or not. It's nowhere near as pristine as some of the other 1900/02s I've seen.

While I'd love to shoot it, I won't. I need to preserve it and like you said OF, it could be dangerous. The difference between the power of the smokeless powder of 1900 and the power of the powder of today make shooting of many antique firearms dangerous.

I have no intention of selling the gun as I want to keep it in the family and pass it down. I need to get a good $ amount for it's value since I update my insurance policy to reflect the value of my gun collection every year. Even with a large safe bolted to the floor one can't be too careful. On that note do you have any reputable links for determining the value? I gave up asking at guns shows since I feel they may under price it and try to 'make a deal'! As I said it's not for sale!!

Please let me know if I need to post more pics or more info in order to fully gain all the information possible on the gun.

Thanks for your help guys!

 

[Jim Watson]

The Shooting and Fishing article I quoted was from a reprint in the Haven & Belden book, 'A History of The Colt Revolver' which itself it kind of an antique, originally published in 1940. My copy is the Bonanza reprint, much later, but still not new. It lacks detail in some aggravating areas and I am sure another 69 years of research will have added new and corrected material, but it is still interesting.

 

[Old Fuff]

Value:

As in money...

Colt started the Model 1900 at serial number 1. Approximately 3,500 were made, but we don't know exactly how many, because when the Model 1902 (Sporting) was introduced they continued on from around 3,500 forward. What we know is based on shipping records, not production records.

An unknown number of Model 1900 pistols were returned to Colt to have the rear sight changed. A survey of known survivors indicates that the number of modified pistols is probably equal to, if not greater then those with the original sight. Unmodified pistols don't show up for sale very often, and usually the guns are not in pristine condition. They saw a lot of mileage during the early years, and were neglected after they became obsolete.

My $2,000 figure was conservative, and likely on the low side. An example in excellent condition (antique standards) could easily go at auction for between 8 to 10 thousand dollars. The only way I know to get a confirmed value would be to follow the top-draw antique & classic gun auctions (not gunbroker.com or GunsAmerica) and wait for a gun to come along and see what the high bid is.

I will say that despite the recent downslide of our national economy, prices on better collectable guns is going the other way, and sometimes rapidly so. If you consider that a Walker Colt (1 of 1100 give or take) in excellent (antique standard) condition went for almost nine hundred thousand 10 grand for a Model 1900 shouldn't be considered out of line.

 

[blue german]

If you are seriously interested in any of the Colt 38 Autos, you simply must get the book A Collector’s Guide to Colt’s .38 Automatic Pistols, by Douglas G. Sheldon. In here, presented in very detailed sharp photos and concise text the ins-and-outs of these remarkable pistols are explained better than any other book I have ever seen.

BTW, if you will check the Belden book, the original 38 ACP loading was a 107 grain slug at 1300 some fps! Not at all bad!

I own one 1903 Pocket hammer in the 46600 range, among the last 1000 sold. I have not fired it much, perhaps 2-300 rounds over the past 20 years. It it quite interesting, in great mechanical condition and has a spare mag that fits in the shoulder holster that came with the pistol. When I cleaned it, taking pains to kill any and all 'finger rust', I found a 1915 series Mexican 500 peso note hidden under the left grip. When I asked the former owner, he said he'd 'never taken that old gun apart'......

I can attest to the fact he'd never had it apart!

Blue German

 

[Old Fuff]

A Collector’s Guide to Colt’s .38 Automatic Pistols, by Douglas G. Sheldon.

Was the book I was thinking of, but couldn't remember. It comes highly recommended as the best reference within its field.

Loads varied slightly depending on the manufacturer. One of interest consisted of a 105-grain metal-jacketed bullet, backed with an 8-grain charge of (unspecified) smokeless powder. Velocity was determined to be 1,255 FPS @ 50 feet. The U.S. Army used it in a test conducted during February and April, 1900. That's about as early as you can get.

Match that against the standard .38 Long Colt revolver cartridge used in Colt service revolvers of that day. The load consisted of a 150 grain lead bullet with a muzzle velocity of 785 FPS from a 6" barrel.

 

[Wilbur747]

Thanks so much for your help...

Guys, I don't have the words to express my thanks for your help. I possess a gun my father once thought was worthless. I thought otherwise and you all confirmed by beliefs. My goal is not to sell for profit, but to preserve for my family.

I'll get the gun lettered. I agree this will add to it's value. Any thoughts on how to best preserve it outside of the normal not it and itubrication? Should I refrain from handling it without gloves? After all it does have some pitting. I still need to get an appraisal for insurance purposes, but your help is invaluable!

Thanks again, my friends!

Now I must move to my 1975, NEVER reworked Python with a logo mis-stamp!