Yet another Nosler blow up!!

[H&Hhunter]

I have been taken to task on more than one occasion when I do not recomend Nosler PT's for big game hunting and especially not for Dangerous game hunting.

While I find the Nosler PT to be an adequate bullet most of the time. I have found more often than not that they will shed their front core and lose serious weight which limits their penetration.

I do recomend the Nosler PT in the various Federal HE loads not so much for the bullet but more so for the combination of a fair bullet at good velocity and a quality cartridge for non hand loaders. They do offer a fair bullet with good BC at great velocity for a .308Win. I'm just really starting to wonder if they are worthn the extra money??

Pictured below are two bullets fired from the same .308 Win.

The one that is obviously showing a front core seperation was a 180gr Nosler PT federal HE it was recovered from a mule deer the shot was somewhere around 80 to 100 yards. The starting velocity on that bullet was right around 2650FPS (Average chrono through my rifle.) It weighs 118Grs. Not what I'd call stelar performance.

The other is a Walmart purchased 150Gr Winchester power point recoverd from the second hog it struck after completley passing through the first hogs chest. The distance was somwhere around 180yards. the starting velocity on these is around 2850FPS. It still weighs 147 grs.

Niether bullet hit "serious" bone.



It really makes me wonder if the noslers are worth the price. I'm starting to think they are a bunch of hype. This is the 4th 180gr nosler I've recovered that has shed either it's front it's back or both lead cores.

Am I missing something here?

DISCALIMER ALL OFF THE BULLETS SHOWN ON THIS THREAD WERE RECOVERED FROM DEAD ANIMALS. SO I GUESS IT'S ALL KIND OF A MUTE POINT FROM A SCIENTIFIC STAND POINT, HUH?

 

[ClarkEMyers]

I wouldn't call it "blow up" myself - it is typical

For my money, and I do buy Nosler partitions among other bullets, the bullets are worth it and do what they claim so it's not hype - it's facts.

I've seen blowups where the bullet decided it was a really a safety slug and fell apart into shot sized pieces - I'd reserve the term for that.

On the other hand what I think they claim is what I understand you saw. I see a bullet where
(1) the front is indeed quite fragile and will expand at longer ranges where the velocity has fallen so that traditional bullets may not expand - advantage Nosler for expansion
(2) the rear will have some lead in it after the front has spewed its core in circumstances where the traditional bullets (and perhaps some boat tails) will spew their one and only core - advantage Nosler for having something left. The jacket will fold back and reduce frontal area giving some slight additional penetration at the expense of wound cavity - trade-off perhaps no advantage either way.

I suspect there are bullets today, going back to Bill Steiger's Bitteroot Bonded that will hold together better and produce larger wound cavities than Noslers. I'm pretty sure the Nosler Ballistic Tip will expand better at extreme range too. And so on and so forth

I feel the partition bullet will give me something no matter what the circumstances. It wouldn't surprise me a bit to find some of the newer bullets are better than the Partition in all circumstances - it won't make me feel any less confident in taking a shot on grass eaters at any reasonable range from right off the muzzle to as far as I can hold (which isn't that far) with a 200 grain 30 caliber Nosler Partition. I'd use the same load on bear over a much more restricted range of about 75 to 150 yards - no more no less (if I have a choice).

On the other hand, I used my partitions in .375 for trade bait during the period they were out of production and hard to find - in .375 I currently load one of the newer bonded bullets for grass eaters and I can imagine anything from Woodleigh to Speer's tungsten for dangerous game - what do you suggest?

 

[HankL]

H&H Please tell us about the Mule Deer. Where was it hit and how far did it run?

 

[H&Hhunter]

with a 200 grain 30 caliber Nosler Partition. I'd use the same load on bear over a much more restricted range of about 75 to 150 yards - no more no less (if I have a choice).

Clark,

That is a totaly unrealistic statement. On simply cannot, in the field count on or expect such controlled conditions. Shots come when they come and especially on dangeropus game you need a bullet that you can depend on at any range from flash burn distance to recovery shot distance.

I have said before I think a Nosler PT is great deer bullet and it's an OK elk and moose bullet far better than many but not the best choice by a long shot. For the non hand loader however, in the Federal HE loadings they are about the best thing going. I'm not sure however in soft critter application that you aren't better of just shooting corelokt?

I do not recomend them on big game meaning thick skined or dangerous game they are just to soft.

Hank.

I shot that deer quartering away just behind the last rib and I recovered the bullet under the skin just behind the off shoulder. He didn't go anywhere. HIYAKA!


What bothers me most about the Nosler PT is that I've had them completley blow apart as in disinigrate front and rear at .308 velocities. As in under 2700FPS. I'll say it again they are fine on soft animals they are NOT in any way shape or form a BIG game bullet as in Brown bear, Cape buffalo, Giraffe ETC..

I see many people asking about using them in thick skined critters the answer is NO IMO.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Don't disagree about bullets though I tend to heavier for the caliber

I do assure you that I won't start hostilities against a bear that's too close if I can back off a little and I won't start hostilities against a bear where I'm shooting to break a specific bone nearly so far as I will against an animal where I'm shooting at the whole heart/lung volume - though I may be more or less aiming at the far shoulder bones depending on angles. Like Elmer Keith's mule deer, once started I may find myself taking shots I'd pass up in other circumstances.

I suppose there's a difference between wandering around family and friend's land with a rifle as I mostly do and traveling the world - times I could have killed an elk with the High Standard .22 magnum derringer I sometimes use for slaughter - doesn't make the CCI rimfire an elk bullet either. Nor do I suppose the Nosler or any super bullet makes a marginal cartridge perfectly adequate.

Given that there are better bullets than the Nosler and I don't doubt there are then what are they?

I'll never go to Africa but if I had to harvest a trophy animal in foreign lands I'd certainly default to newer and more expensive bullets in newer and more expensive firearms - on the other hand it is still true that I'll wander around kicking brush on a north exposure while loaded with Noslers as indicated and not wish for better.

 

[nico]

I don't mean to speak for H&H Hunter, but from the pics he's posted, Barnes seems to be better than Nosler. He posted a couple Barnes bullets a while ago that (iirc) were recovered from a cape buffalo. One was a solid that lost 2gr of weight and looked like it could be reloaded and the other was a soft point that performed perfectly.

 

[DigMe]

I wish I could find Barnes-X in lighter factory loadings for .30-06. As it is all I can find for that caliber in Barnes-X are the Federal 180gr.

brad cook

 

[256M-S]

I'm not sure the book is in on the so-called enhanced energy, high energy, and light magnum loads with older technology projectiles pushed at several hundred fps more velocity....particularly in closer range shots.

The Nosler, as with the German projectiles on which they are based, was designed to disrupt the nose section with the base carrying on thru. I think we all understand that. Was the round placed in a vital area and did the critter go down efficiently? If so, as a well known writer observed in regard to a similar cmt about Nosler failure, at what point did the bullet fail? The Partition has never been touted as a high weight retention projectile, it was created to provide a functional mix of penetration and expansion at a real world variety of game ranges.

The HE 308 isn't designed for heavy game, so, to me, carrying the 308 Partition analogy to equate it's performance with heavier bore Partition performance on heavy game isn't terribly useful. I've taken game from deer to elk with a 375 with Nosler 300-grain Partitions and have yet to recover a projectile to note it's failure. I've never killed anything with a Nosler in 308, but surely have with the 180-grain Partition in 06. Again, I don't think I've ever recovered a bullet. Same with the 140-grain Partition in 7X57--have never to date had a critter fail to go down to the shot and never recovered a projectile. I must confess though, that I have not felt an urge to try the light mag, high energy, enhanced energy loads personally, since I have no complaints about current performance of the more traditional calibres I tend to use and still have reservations about bullet performance designed for one level and then pushing it up to another. That being said, I suspect the Nosler Partition will handle the variation better than most.

There is no doubt that there are harder and tougher bullets out there than the Partition. I also tend to think that some of them act more like solids than softpoints and deer hunters are probably better served by some of the older conventional soft points than some of the new super hard bonded projectiles. As far as heavier game, I've had no problems with the appropriate calibres and their partitions, but if what you want is more weight retention, there are clearly better bullets out there to provide it. Do they kill as well, maybe-maybe not.

I like through and through penetration, but I always look with a jaundiced eye about selected a bullet for the much vaunted thru and thru penetration from any angle for anything other than dangerous game....which basically presupposes that one has failed to anchor with the first shot and/or has taken the first shot inadvisedly. All I can judge by is what I have done or witnessed, of course, but that has surely left me with the feeling that the Nosler Partition from 7X57 up thru 375 H&H is a consistently performing bullet that delivers under a pretty wide set of parameters from close range to extended range. It is maybe, THE most consistently performing game bullet at widely varied velocity, ranges, and game weight---but retained weight has never been its strong point or what it has been advertised as providing. Judging it by the most recent technology in highly controlled expansion projectiles is a bit like the old saw of comparing the apple to orange.

Is it my first choice for buffalo in Africa....probably not, but then I've always used a 416 Rigby (and been happy with Woodleighs since there was no factory ammunition with Nosler Partitions) on the smallish forest and NW buffalo of the hunting area that I lived in for nigh ten years. In the lighter calibres, but those appropriate for the game, would I use it happily for anything in North America, I have and will continue to do so unless some perverse new management takes over and changes a working combination that has been functional since just after WW II. Would I take it to Africa were I to have the opportunity to make a short hunt from the states, I'd surely consider it as one of the top choices for anything on which I'd use a soft point in 375 H&H 300-grain or smaller calibres.

Mr Myers comment about using the once sadly discontinued 375 300-grain Noslers for trading stock is a pretty functional example of the high esteem in which it was held for many years---I hoarded my small supply like a miser when I handloaded hunting ammunition.

Cheers,

 

[H&Hhunter]

The major probelm I am having with these Noslers is that they are being fired at under 2700FPS and I've had them go full uncork mode. As in only the partition and jacket fragments were recovered the lead was wiped off both ends and that is at .308WIN velocity. These same bullets can not be judged as reliable at .300 mag velocity.

Here are some recoverd bullets I'd call rock solid performers.

500 gr .470NE Barnes X recovered from a buffalo the solid weighs 500grs the X weighs 498grs.



500gr .458Lott Woodleigh solid and soft recovered from a Buffalo both still weigh 500grs



Two 500gr woodleigh solids recovered from a Buffalo after hitting major bone they both went throuogh the pelvis and were rcovered under the skin of the neck. Full length penetration end for end. Notice that both of these bullets are fish tailed. Not good in a solid.

The Lead ball is a cold rolled 69Cal musket ball fired from a poachers black powder musket it was found under the skin of the shoulder and had long since healed over. I'd love to have been there and seen what happened on that day as this was a massive old bull. I'll bet there were some hostilities in the miombo on that day..



Just thought you might enjoy these.

Greg

 

[HankB]

H&H, after seeing your pictures, I have to ask - you're not actually criticizing .308 NPs because they don't perform like premium .458/.470 bullets, are you?

Seriously, I've used handloaded 180 NPs out of my .30/06 on many deer, as well as impala, warthog, hyena, puku, kudu, zebra, Kafue lechwe, gemsbok, etc., and they've always performed well. (I have NOT tried them on Cape buffalo, hippo, or lion, reserving those tasks for my .375 . . . I wouldn't by choice use ANY .308 bullet on these critters.) Usually I don't recover the bullet, but when I have, even if the front core was shed, the rear was recovered under the skin on the far side - usually after passing through most of the animal's length. Expansion took place which caused a great deal of damage internally, and penetration was still easily adequate to get the job done with alacrity.

I shot that deer quartering away just behind the last rib and I recovered the bullet under the skin just behind the off shoulder. He didn't go anywhere. HIYAKA!

Doesn't sound like much cause for complaint here.

The Partition is, IMHO, as good an "all around" bullet as one is likely to find. The front expands rapidly so on a distant shot (where velocity has fallen) or on a broadside shot at "small" game, you'll still get expansion - it won't "pencil through." In the case of a closer shot, or a shot at tougher game, the rear core will still penetrate even after the front over-expands.

(Maybe if I were shooting maximum loads out of a .30/.378 I'd have a different opinion.)

It may not be "absolutely ideal" for every situation, but for a .30/06 it's as good as any and better than most when it comes to covering the full spectrum of possible hunting situations.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Hank

I have said before I think a Nosler PT is great deer bullet and it's an OK elk and moose bullet far better than many but not the best choice by a long shot.

That's my quote I think that ought to clear up any misunderstaning you may have about my thread..

I do not recomend them on big game,meaning thick skined or dangerous game they, are just to soft.

That is my other point about Noslers. Now try and pay attention Hank.

Also I am OBVIOUSLY not recomending using .308 diameter rounds on buffalo. Sorry if I confused you.

 

[rexelbion]

For what its worth, I personally will only use nosler tips on thin skinned game like axis and whitetail. You'll get a nice exit wound on these types of animals, but this bullet lacks the ideal penetration on thicker skinned animals. On large game, I will use nothing but Barnes X or a monolithic solid. Period.

At least thats my take on the subject.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Ditto.....

 

[Delmar]

After years of using Partitions and Ballistic tips out of my 308 on white tails, I went to Hornady 165 grain spire point boat tails. They are just as accurate out of my rifles as the ballistic tips-more accurate than the Partitions.

They expand just fine at all my hunting distances (out to 300 yards), and I have entry and exit holes the way I like it-30 cal on entry, and silver dollar on the exit.

They cost less than half of what the Partitions go for and they do the job. Period.

There may be a use for Partitions and Ballistic tips, but I have not yet found a situation where a PT or BT would have made the difference.

I'll never hunt in Africa-but do enjoy your findings, H&H! The only reason I'll shoot a bear is in self defense or defense of another. Don't have room for a moose in the meat locker, nor enough mouths to eat it all up.

Deer and pig really don't take much killing to put them down if you do your homework.

 

[H&Hhunter]

There may be a use for Partitions and Ballistic tips, but I have not yet found a situation where a PT or BT would have made the difference.

Delmar,

That was the whole point of this thread. Thank you for your post.

Not that the Nosler PT is a bad bullet but given it's characteristics there are many bullets out there that perform just as well for a heck of alot less money.

Greg

 

[Art Eatman]

My father used the 150-grain Hornady Spire Point for some 30 years. He used the flat-based, though. '06. Knowing how he killed a bunch of deer for other folks to tag, he probably collected way over 100 during that time. The closest I ever saw him kill a buck was maybe 50 yards; witnesses saw him kill a buck at 500.

I never had any problems with the Remington 150-grain Bronze Point. They're great for blood-trail exit wounds, except that most of my bucks were DRT.

The last 20 or so years, I've used Sierras. Flat-based, boat-tailed; 150-grain and 165-grain. Only on deer, but by and large, DRT. Even the little 85-grain HPBT from my .243 tends to be DRT on white tails to 120 pounds, field dressed...

I've noticed that if you break a deer's neck, he doesn't go very far. Maybe three feet, vertically. Makes gutting them out a lot less messy, as well.

Art

 

[Delmar]

Gotta thank you for the advice you gave me a couple of years ago, Sir Eatman! I did try the 150 grain Hornady's you recommended to me, but they expanded a bit too fast out of the 26 inch tube I use on my 308-still went all the way through but looked as if I stuck a grenade in its chest, so I jumped it up to the 165's and have been in venison heaven ever since

I like the neck shots too, and prefer that or a head shot if I'm absolutely sure and steady. The farthest I've had a deer go with these hornadys is one I got a good headshot on-he spun 180 degrees within his own body length and dropped. One thing about head and neck hits-its easy to tell that you made a killing shot because they normally just fall over as if someone tipped them slowly.

I've passed on a lot of deer because I won't shoot until I can call the shot. My hunting buddy also discovered how much easier they are to dress out compared to a hit in the boiler room. We dress them out where they lay instead of dragging them over to a tree. Not always a convienient one in west Texas.....

 

[Art Eatman]

I didn't know there was any other way to gut a deer besides on the ground! Unzip, separate unwanted bodily parts, turn over, lift and shake. Done.

I've had the Bronze Points do the grenade thing. I'd rather have bloody hands and DRT than have to trail, though. If there's anything I hate, it's some guy stumbling into camp about dark-thirty as I'm settling down in front of the campfire with a Refreshing Drink and whining at me, "Can you help me find my deer?"

"Why, certainly, sir! I can't begin to express my pleasure at the idea of stumbling through mesquite and cactus in the dark! Such a thrill! Lead on!"

BTDT.

, Art

 

[Delmar]

Thanks Art. My buddies think I have lost my mind because I'm laughing in a quiet room!
Yep, there is dressin from the vertical-if you're hunting in the woods. Good rope with a small weight on it and hoist em up to eye level!

I'm with you on the tracking-if I have to walk around to find my food, it better be in the refrigerated section!