Why is there an ammo shortage?

Just checked the garage. Not sure what shortage your talking about?

Warp said:

If paying $6,000 for the generator is not in their best interest, why are they buying it?

If it is in their best interest, why is that option ceasing to exist preferable?

It doesn't make sense to say that denying them the OPTION is better.

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You're kidding, right?

When a child MUST have respirator treatment, which requires electrical power, what choice do you think a parent has?

When the only food readily available to a family for the next several weeks is what lies in their freezer and the ONLY option they have is to buy a generator at FIVE TIMES fair retail from someone with a trailer load, what choice do you think they have?

Price gouging isn't about "fair market enterprise". It isn't even close. It's about taking everything one can get from people because they don't have any choice. All for the sole benefit of the seller.

A market is about trade. A trade is a mutually advantageous deal between a merchant and a buyer, value for value, of either merchandise or services. The modern medium for trade is money, earned in exchange for services rendered elsewhere. Gouging is an extremely unbalanced and unfair advantage in the favor of the seller.

Akin to price gouging is the monopoly. But I digress.

justice06rr said:

Sure we get that. But Price gouging is still price gouging.

Does that mean I can sell one of my bare-bones AR's for $5k? What's the limit really?

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No limit. It's a free-market, and prices are dictated by supply and demand. Demand is astronomical right now, so prices go up. You are not required to ask those prices, or pay them.

For that matter, I am still not seeing actual price gouging where I buy - prices have moved only marginally, at most.

justice06rr said:

Reloading is a different ballgame. There are many factors and costs to consider. Equipment, tools, supplies, space, money, etc.

I have looked into reloading and it will cost me close to $1k and up just to reload 223 or 9mm for the setup I want (progressive press). In these hard times, its not that easy for everyone unless you are really into shooting-- A LOT. Many people have said that you reload not to save money but to shoot more.

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Shooting more = less expensive per round, more shooting per dollar. Same thing.

Starting with a progressive is not very wise, and yes, very expensive. Jumping in head first to reloading with a progressive is not going to be fun - there will be a lot going on with every pull of the handle, and you'll probably end up with powder all over the place, unspent primers on the floor, bent cases, cartridges in your bin with no primers all kinds of woes - I've helped out locals who did exactly this and really regretted it; it's a common mistake.

Even if you're making up to a couple hundred rounds at a time, single steps are just fine, and much better from a quality assurance perspective. A begining reloader making more than 50 rounds at a time is a mistake anyway, especially ammo for semi-autos. I make less than that whenever I load a new cartridge, try a different powder, or new bullet. You'll end up wanting a good single stage press regardless, even if you buy a full ammo plant setup, for when you want to make the very most accurate ammo you can make.

Recheck your prices accordingly, you can get into this pretty inexpensively, and you will be doing something pro-active. Conversely, whining about the free-market price of ammo is worse than doing nothing at all.

RetiredUSNChief said:

You're kidding, right?

When a child MUST have respirator treatment, which requires electrical power, what choice do you think a parent has?

When the only food readily available to a family for the next several weeks is what lies in their freezer and the ONLY option they have is to buy a generator at FIVE TIMES fair retail from someone with a trailer load, what choice do you think they have?

Price gouging isn't about "fair market enterprise". It isn't even close. It's about taking everything one can get from people because they don't have any choice. All for the sole benefit of the seller.

A market is about trade. A trade is a mutually advantageous deal between a merchant and a buyer, value for value, of either merchandise or services. The modern medium for trade is money, earned in exchange for services rendered elsewhere. Gouging is an extremely unbalanced and unfair advantage in the favor of the seller.

Akin to price gouging is the monopoly. But I digress.

Click to expand...

Any child's health impacted by an electrical outage deserves a call to your local fire-dept. They will come out, get your utility company, and/or put a generator on, or move the child to a care facility. So let's be realistic.. this isn't a life or death situation here.

You don't "NEED" an AR15, or a thousand rounds of penetrator ammo, or a high-cap magazine. I watch the news, we're not having a civil war, and the dead are not walking the earth looking for fresh meat. You want this stuff, in fear of a ban, along with many others, and like many others you imagine that in a ban environment the value of these items will be even higher.

But where was your support for these items in the many years preceding the ban? Why don't you already have these items?

What you're really complaining about is that people didn't think anything would ever change, didn't buy and use any of these items, and now that some kind of action MIGHT happen from the feds, they want to run out with 200,000,000 others who suddenly "need" an AR15 with a hi-cap mag and a boatload of ammo. Worst of all the majority of these people want to do it now, so they won't have to pay the price hike that would go with a ban - a purely financial motive.

And you're going to complain that the prices are going to be steep? You want the owners of these items, shooters who have supported the platforms for years, to hand over their items at prices that (if you are correct) they would never replace them for?

Who exactly are the greedy ones? IMHO it's everyone whining about the prices.

Proud supporter of the AR15 platform (and not a bit of it bought within the last year):

radiotom said:

Whoa whoa whoa there. Price gouging is causing a shortage? Less buyers at higher prices....supply and demand. Seriously, it's time to google supply and demand and learn before talking about it.

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Just from my own perspective, let's make it clear that I'm not talking about price gouging causing a shortage. I'm talking about some people who buy up ammunition at one price and turn around and sell it at unreasonably higher prices later to people because they no longer have any choice if they feel they cannot ride out the shortage.

From what I've seen, and I've priced ammunition in various stores across a three state area these last few weeks, the commercial prices for all the ammunition I buy has remained virtually unchanged. It's simply moving off the shelves about as fast as it can be stocked.

So the stores aren't engaging in price gouging tactics. It's some individuals who are.

And no, I'm not counting people who only mark up what they have by a few dollars.

Thankfully, I've seen nobody actually pulling that kind of stunt around me. I've occasionally seen a couple guys exchange ammunition for money at an outdoor range, but it was always at what I thought was a fair market value. Good guys exhibiting good sportsmanlike conduct to fellow people in the same hobby.

Sure we get that. But Price gouging is still price gouging.

Does that mean I can sell one of my bare-bones AR's for $5k? What's the limit really?

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It means you can ASK $5K for it, but as mentioned above, the buyer sets the price on all goods and services sold

I'm talking about some people who buy up ammunition at one price and turn around and sell it at unreasonably higher prices later to people because they no longer have any choice if they feel they cannot ride out the shortage.

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It is not an unreasonably higher price if folks WILLINGLY buy it. I don't see folks whining about jewelers who buy rocks, mark them up over 1000% and convince people to buy them; after all, they are just rocks - why the whining here?

Price gouging isn't about "fair market enterprise". It isn't even close. It's about taking everything one can get from people because they don't have any choice. All for the sole benefit of the seller.

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When it comes to guns and ammo, especially specific guns and ammo, everyone has a CHOICE - you either buy it or not. If everyone refuses to pay that $5K for an AR, it will not sell; however, if one person feels it is a fair price and willingly pays it, then it was priced out accordingly.

I would bet that most here complaining would be singing a different tune had they been the ones that bought 20 ARs for 500 and are now selling them for 1500

Sure we get that. But Price gouging is still price gouging.

Does that mean I can sell one of my bare-bones AR's for $5k? What's the limit really?

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This quote has been beaten to death, but just to stick one more nail in it: Have you seen the cost of fully auto M16s? They don't cost any more to make than the semi versions, why do they cost 20 times more??? Supply and demand.

I agree. Lot of folks who made jokes about other people's level of preparedness are now asking if they can buy ammo from the very same people they mocked. One of these folks just paid $2500 for a used plain jane AR.

Proving once again that what comes around goes around.

On a related note: if you look at the prices, wasn't that long ago 45acp was $6/50 for hardball. Looks like its now up near $20/50. Best investment I ever made . . . . .

I don't have a big issue with raising prices to match the market whether it be a generator, a firearm, food or water. In a worst case situation, one needs to consider what currency is acceptable.

mikechandler said:

Any child's health impacted by an electrical outage deserves a call to your local fire-dept. They will come out, get your utility company, and/or put a generator on, or move the child to a care facility. So let's be realistic.. this isn't a life or death situation here.

You don't "NEED" an AR15, or a thousand rounds of penetrator ammo, or a high-cap magazine. I watch the news, we're not having a civil war, and the dead are not walking the earth looking for fresh meat. You want this stuff, in fear of a ban, along with many others, and like many others you imagine that in a ban environment the value of these items will be even higher.

But where was your support for these items in the many years preceding the ban? Why don't you already have these items?

What you're really complaining about is that people didn't think anything would ever change, didn't buy and use any of these items, and now that some kind of action MIGHT happen from the feds, they want to run out with 200,000,000 others who suddenly "need" an AR15 with a hi-cap mag and a boatload of ammo. Worst of all the majority of these people want to do it now, so they won't have to pay the price hike that would go with a ban - a purely financial motive.

And you're going to complain that the prices are going to be steep? You want the owners of these items, shooters who have supported the platforms for years, to hand over their items at prices that (if you are correct) they would never replace them for?

Who exactly are the greedy ones? IMHO it's everyone whining about the prices.

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In the scenario I was speaking of, the fire department was not always an option. Roads were completely blocked for days, weeks in some places. And, before this detours too much further, yes I know there were other options. I was there, I was part of those "other options".

But that does not excuse those who chose to prey on the misfortune of others.

As for the "need" for an AR15 and thousands of rounds of ammo...I never once said that. Please do me the courtesy of not putting such words in my mouth.

As for my "support for these items in the many years preceding the ban" and why I didn't stock up...again, please do me the courtesty of not putting words into my mouth nor making unwarranted assumptions about my own personal support or preparations. I was not talking about banned items. I was talking about price gouging on market items currently available.

And also please do me the courtesty of not putting words into my mouth about what I'm "really complaining about", either. I'm quite able to put what I'm "really complaining about" in my own words, thank you.

Please go back over my postings. Never once was I talking about people who suddenly developed a "need" for anything like an AR15, hi-cap magazines, and a boatload of ammunition simply based on current events.

:banghead:

People who are willing to part with something which they themselves might need--ammunition, rifles, magazines, or a generator--during a time when those things may be in short supply (or never ever to be made again ever ever ever...in the case of what they are talking about doing to guns and mags in Washington right now) then for someone to part with them is going to take an extra inducement. In this case a higher amount of money than the item might previously had brought. Rare items demand higher prices. That's just a truism.

Bemoaning this situation seems to be related to jealousy. "Why didn't *I* buy that generator when I could have gotten it cheap? Why are we forced to buy it from someone who wants more for it than it cost 2 days ago?" That type of jealousy is the kind used as a motivator in Communist states. "The rich have more than you. This is unfair. Let us take from them and give to you."

If the price is too high, don't buy it. And live without the object--be it gasoline (Sandy) or generators (all hurricane disasters), or guns and magazines (now).

I wish i had 15 Walmart's close by

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Me too. I love Walmart.

My local WM is out of everything. I didn't look too close though. I have about all the ammo and componants I need for the next several years. Maybe the rest of my life. I don't burn through ammo like I used to.

I went to check out all gun stores within 1 hour... found everything except for 223
7.62x39 ammo 20 round for $11.....
A Walmart have 50 round remington 22LR for $2.14(they only allowed me to buy 4 boxes tho), another store has it for $3..... one store was selling CCI 50 round for $6...
They all say how short they are on ammo but I feel they are holding back on their stock.....

RetiredUSNChief said:

You're kidding, right?

When a child MUST have respirator treatment, which requires electrical power, what choice do you think a parent has?

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According to you they shouldn't have any choice at all.

RetiredUSNChief said:

Price gouging isn't about "fair market enterprise". It isn't even close. It's about taking everything one can get from people because they don't have any choice. All for the sole benefit of the seller.

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So they MUST have respirator treatment, and getting the electricity that is required for that treatment gives them zero benefit?

lol

RetiredUSNChief said:

In the scenario I was speaking of, the fire department was not always an option. Roads were completely blocked for days, weeks in some places. And, before this detours too much further, yes I know there were other options. I was there, I was part of those "other options".

But that does not excuse those who chose to prey on the misfortune of others.

As for the "need" for an AR15 and thousands of rounds of ammo...I never once said that. Please do me the courtesy of not putting such words in my mouth.

As for my "support for these items in the many years preceding the ban" and why I didn't stock up...again, please do me the courtesty of not putting words into my mouth nor making unwarranted assumptions about my own personal support or preparations. I was not talking about banned items. I was talking about price gouging on market items currently available.

And also please do me the courtesty of not putting words into my mouth about what I'm "really complaining about", either. I'm quite able to put what I'm "really complaining about" in my own words, thank you.

Please go back over my postings. Never once was I talking about people who suddenly developed a "need" for anything like an AR15, hi-cap magazines, and a boatload of ammunition simply based on current events.

:banghead:

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And please don't imagine I am only addressing you and not the topic. The first paragraph alone, regarding firemen was towards your comment (not even towards you).

You assumed way too much, and then worse you got offended. It's a forum, pal, and we're addressing the topic, along the way perhaps addressing comments from others here and there.



Trust me - when I'm addressing only YOU, you'll know it - it will be in a PM.

"When the only food readily available to a family for the next several weeks is what lies in their freezer and the ONLY option they have is to buy a generator at FIVE TIMES "

It is not the seller's fault you didn't plan ahead to protect your investment. If you really need something - like a generator - it's never too early to get it.

John

Can we get a trainload or two of Aguila or Magtech? I guarantee you will sell every last round of it!

Contact both of them and have every last round shipped:

http://www.magtechammunition.com/

http://www.aguilaammo.com/


Any ammo in Canada?

How about clearing Norinco?


"In 1993, the import of most Norinco firearms and ammunition into the United States were blocked under new trade rules when China's Most Favored Nation status was renewed."

"In August 2003, the Bush Administration imposed sanctions on Norinco for allegedly selling missile-related goods to Iran. These sanctions led to a prohibition on imports into the US of the remaining types of firearms and ammunition not covered by the 1993 ban. While neither the Chinese government nor Norinco has denied doing business with Iranian companies, they dismissed the allegation that it involved missile related goods. Norinco has called the sanctions "groundless and unjustified" and "entirely unreasonable."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norinco

Walmart: I just happen to be in local Walmart yesterday, and seen they had 8 boxes of Winchester 308's. They went home with me!!!!!!!!!!

mikechandler said:

And please don't imagine I am only addressing you and not the topic. The first paragraph alone, regarding firemen was towards your comment (not even towards you).

You assumed way too much, and then worse you got offended. It's a forum, pal, and we're addressing the topic, along the way perhaps addressing comments from others here and there.



Trust me - when I'm addressing only YOU, you'll know it - it will be in a PM.

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Fair enough!

Warp said:

According to you they shouldn't have any choice at all.

So they MUST have respirator treatment, and getting the electricity that is required for that treatment gives them zero benefit?

lol

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I made my point about price gouging and what context defines it. But I'll be happy to go another round:

Price gouging is a predatory behavior, not related to sustainable economics as the "law of supply and demand" does. Nominal increases in prices due to changes in supply and demand are, indeed, legitimate and serve their purpose in the overall scheme of economics. Price gouging, as predatory behavior, does not serve that purpose.

My point has been made several times. Your recent postings do nothing but ridicule that and don't bring anything further to this.

You either misrepresent my posts, ridicule the circumstances, or are simply looking for an argument.

Any way you look at it, however, the subject of "price gouging", meant to be a minor tangent on the previous ongoing discussion, has drifted far off of the topic as originally posted, which is "Why is there an ammo shortage?"

Have a good day.

RetiredUSNChief said:

I made my point about price gouging and what context defines it. But I'll be happy to go another round:

Price gouging is a predatory behavior, not related to sustainable economics as the "law of supply and demand" does. Nominal increases in prices due to changes in supply and demand are, indeed, legitimate and serve their purpose in the overall scheme of economics. Price gouging, as predatory behavior, does not serve that purpose.

My point has been made several times. Your recent postings do nothing but ridicule that and don't bring anything further to this.

You either misrepresent my posts, ridicule the circumstances, or are simply looking for an argument.

Any way you look at it, however, the subject of "price gouging", meant to be a minor tangent on the previous ongoing discussion, has drifted far off of the topic as originally posted, which is "Why is there an ammo shortage?"

Have a good day.

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Your "point" seems to be that you believe you get to arbitrarily dictate what constitutes "nominal increases in prices due to changes in supply and demand" and and what constitutes "price gouging".

Factories only have so many machines/equipment to produce many different calibers. Not one line for each. When inventory is gone, it may be a few months till they make more. Same with guns. As for "price gouging" who knows what the new retail price will be in this new year. Prices always go up it seems. Watch out for double digit inflation, might happen.

The free market takes care of gougers - people can choose not to do business with them when the situation stabilizes.

Folks who either didn't think ahead or didn't have the resources to make preparations will fare accordingly.

Sorry Chief, but I can't get together with you on this one. No such thing as "gouging", just prices rising in response to demand.

Two very instructive John Stossel videos regarding what is ordinarily called "price gouging" and how it is actually a good thing for everyone.
Video 1, old
Video 2, post Hurricane Sandy


Taking generators as an example:
Every day of the week, approximately 364 days per year (closed on Christmas), Lowes and Home Depot compete against each other to sell you a generator at the lowest possible price. From the comfort of your home you can order one from Harbor Freight Tools for as little as $150 and have it shipped to your doorstep. I'll go on record saying there is no one in this country who could not get a generator at what we would all consider fair market price approximately 98% of the time. However, these retailers will be sold out in the few days leading up to and the weeks following a natural disaster. To wait until after losing power following some disaster to decide you need a generator shows poor judgement, and to demand that a generator be available to you at the same price as every other day shows a vastly inflated sense of entitlement that I refuse to support.


Regarding the current panic and supposed "gouging", the explanation is quite simple: the discussion of impending legislation that would seriously impinge on the second amendment rights of all citizens has created a class of buyers that is now willing to pay considerably more to obtain AR-15s, standard capacity magazines and ammunition than they previously would have. Retailers are responding to this demand and attempting to maintain their stock by raising prices to a point where it would be financially uncomfortable for a person to buy more than they felt they "need."

Walmart is out of stock after maintaining pre-scare prices. An LGS here has more than doubled their prices, and has plenty in stock. I might not like it, but if I actually needed ammunition, I would buy from the LGS.




And Chief, watch the videos before you respond. They're worth the time.