Have the anti-gunners already won?

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usmarine0352_2005

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NY, NJ, CA, MN, CO, and other states are all passing or are getting ready to pass strict anti-gun laws that could cripple gun ownership. Other states maybe following suit.


They are passing semi-automatic weapons bans, magazine size bans, making magazines be engraved with a serial number date, making gun buyers pay for their background checks, making people do background checks on all sales, tax on bullets and guns, making gun owners have insurance, confiscation of so-called assault weapons and magazines, and other such laws.



Sure many of these laws are unconstitutional and would be repealed by the court, however, by that time (years) the guns and magazines would all ready be gone, perhaps no longer even being manufactured because the manufacturers were put out of business. The goal of the anti-gunners is to "dry-up" the guns and magazines, so perhaps by the time the unconstitutional laws are repealed it's too late.



Companies such as Magpul are getting ready to leave CO and Remington and Olympic Arms maybe leaving NY.



If years from now we get these unconstitutional laws repealed, will it matter because we would no longer have our guns and magazines and/or gun companies would be out of business because it's too late?
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If gun companies go out of business, where will the government get guns and ammo from?
 
Since they can't get a federal bill up and running, they've retreated to state government, where it's easier to pass such things under much less media scrutiny. That's just political strategy, regardless of what issue or what side of the issue.
 
We haven't lost, we're doing pretty good actually. There are lots of attacks and we need to keep up the good fight. We've lost a few battles but it's the war that matters.
Even if they banned all semi-autos and magazines over 10 rounds nation wide there would be hundreds of freedom loving Americans setting up their own manufacturing systems. We will only lose our freedom if we LET them take it. There are 80,000,000+ gun owners in America, we should not fear our government, that's not what the founding fathers intended.

"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion"
-Thomas Jefferson.
 
I know it's great to pound the freedom drum, but no one did crap after the 1994 AWB. Dozens of American businesses went out of business because their product line was outlawed. There was no rising up against the government. There was no massive civil disobedience. No one was making their own personal firearms to circumvent federal law. Everyone tucked tail between their legs and complied with federal law until 2004 when it sunset everywhere except states that adopted a state-level version of the same bill.

That's the reality. That's why we better not let it happen to begin with because all those pie-in-the-sky fantasies vaporize the day after such a law is passed.
 
usmarine0352_2005 said:
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If years from now we get these unconstitutional laws repealed, will it matter because we would no longer have our guns and magazines and/or gun companies would be out of business because it's too late?[/B]
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I think the big question is, who will voluntarily turn in guns/mags/ammo the state or federal government demands.
If a decent amount of people are sheep, then yes the battle will be lost before it ever gets to the SCOTUS. Then again, if we keep electing people like Obama, the SCOTUS will be full of people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg who has no respect for the Constitution. The current balance of 5-4 majority could easily turn the other way or worse.
So every single person who voted for Obama will have played a role is destroying the 2nd Amendment, and eventually the rest of the Constitution.
 
I'm growing more pessimistic. I'm almost convinced that we won't win the fight in the political arena. We will in rural areas, but the divide between rural and urban voters is just too huge in terms of all values, not just gun rights. Upstate NY is suffering because of NYC voters. Here in GA Atlanta is a worry, as folks flee from NY to Atlanta because it's a better place to live, then proceed to vote into power the same sorts of people that ruined the last place they lived. It's frustrating.

Anyway, what we're seeing is a rush to act before the emotional power of Sandy Hook fades. There's probably not enough support to do so at a national level, so we're seeing local efforts instead. But they're backed by national political efforts. Apparently (according to MSNBC) Bloomberg is throwing millions into PR efforts in multiple states to support civilian disarmament, the mainstream media (with the possible exception of the WSJ) is not on our side, and Obama -- probably the most effective campaigner this country has ever seen -- is encouraging his supporters to put pressure on local politicians to support these sorts of "reasonable, common sense" policies.

I'm not sure what we can do counter that politically. I see the real fight being in the courts, or barring that, elsewhere. The mood among gun owners I've talked to seems a bit...darker and more ominous than it did during previous gun debates. I worry that gun banners might be biting off more than they can chew here.

It's depressing, but I'm trying to be a realist.
 
My guess is that as soon as these state laws start taking efect the NRA and others will file a bucket full of lawsuits and tie them up in court. We have lost nothing yet and frankly, I'm getting tired of all these defeatest posts.
 
Well, thank goodness people are finally starting to have *THIS* discussion.

Yes, it's a political strategy. And it's a damned effective political strategy. Scary isn't it!

What we need to come to grips with is that this isn't just about "gun rights" at all. It's about the overarching social contract that knits the society together. Gun rights are an important part, but only part.

This debate has been going on for quite a while now, and if you want to know what's happening please, please, *PLEASE* bone up on some old political theory. (I know people here have studied this, and we've sent PMs. I'm preaching to make new converts.)

Get and study Hobbes book Leviathan and Locke's book The Second Treatise of Government.

Hobbes describes and justifies a benevolent all powerful state.

Locke describes the founding principles of the US, both among the Federalists and the Anti-federalists. The 'strong central government' favored by the Federalists was a mouse compared to the elephant we have today. The 'strong central government' favored by the Federalists was the one George Washington presided over. The Anti-federalists lost and the constitution was adopted instead of rejected.

Don't study one side. (1) And start with Hobbes. It's the older work. It makes better sense working in progression.

Both are available free on Kindle, Gutenberg, various college websites as PDFs, etc. but I encourage you to buy a paper version with scholarly foot notes that you can write all over the margins.

(1) Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer.
 
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61Woody said:
My guess is that as soon as these state laws start taking efect the NRA and others will file a bucket full of lawsuits and tie them up in court. We have lost nothing yet and frankly, I'm getting tired of all these defeatest posts.
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Well said.
 
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61woody, yes lawsuits. Which takes courts and years to sort out. Which is the problem. It could be too late. We need to be realistic and not just hope the courts will 'eventually' rule in our favor years down the road. We need to defeat these proposals and laws now.


And how have we not lost anything yet? Look at Nathan Haddad who's been charged with 5 felonies for having 5 empty AR15 mags. How many years until that reaches the high courts or will he plead out by then making it a mute point?

I can guarantee you many people who fear breaking the law would turn in their guns and magazines.


I think a lot of pro-2nd Amendment folks believe that a majority of the the public who owns guns are as ardent supporters of the 2nd Amendment as they are and that's just not the case.

People would be turning their guns and magazines in en masse if the government said to do so.
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Pot possession is a mere misdemeanor in most states and not illegal in others.



Owning a hi-cap mag is a felony. Much higher stakes.




Also, the gun owners who would turn their guns in are law abiding citizens, same as the law abiding citizens who don't smoke pot.
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I agree that there have been some setbacks but it is premature to declare defeat. There is quite a bit of anti gun legislation that has been introduced both nationally and on the state level but how much has really become law? Aside from NY I am not aware of any current sweeping changes in even state gun law...and many states are also introducing legislation to expand gun rights.

I think we are in a much better position than any time in history to fight this legislation. The facts and figures are on our side and are easily accessible on the internet. Organizing and awareness of issues has increased because of social media and sites like THR. For sure, we are still under threat of losing many of our rights and probably always will be. But there are plenty of citizens who still believe in the value of all civil liberties and will continue to fight this legislation. No one has won anything.
 
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Like with pot?
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Pot and guns aren't equivalent arguments. One grows freely on it's own volition if left alone. The other requires extensive manufacturing. One is a misdemeanor unless you're distributing and the other is a much more serious offense. One has absolutely no records while the other has records and sales.

Most law-abiding citizens WILL comply. Australians and the British did it. Are there some who hid their guns? Yep, but a large number of folks turned them in because the authorities told them to.

By claiming Americans "are completely totally different" is just ego-stroking. We're still all humans and work on the same basic psychology. Poke and prod us in the right ways and we'll give up. Milgram experiment, anyone? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
 
Pot possession is a mere misdemeanor in most states and not illegal in others.



Owning a hi-cap mag is a felony. Much higher stakes.
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You are absolutely right. I should have methamphetamine as the example.

Although when the War on Drugs started, marijuana was seen as the worst drug imaginable, and no one turned it in then either.

Also, the gun owners who would turn their guns in are law abiding citizens, same as the law abiding citizens who don't smoke pot.
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Actually, I know many otherwise law abiding citizens who smoke pot.
 
Solo said:
Like with pot?
Click to expand...

I don't want to start a pot debate, but as a general rule doper & potheads are (D's), not (R's).

As to your presumed analogy, pot smokers are criminals and do not turn in anything, they smoke their supply.
Many gun owners consider themselves law abiding even though they have no idea how easy some places have made it to lose their 2nd Amendment rights, even for some misdemeanor offenses.

Regardless, some would probably turn in the guns without compensation, and many would do it with a financial incentive (i.e. gun/mag buy back programs).
These same people would not give up their 1st Amendment rights so easily, but somehow in this modern society they do not think the 2nd Amendment has the same value as the 1st.
Sadly they do not realize only the 2nd protects the value of all the others. Without it, everything else is but ink on paper to a tyrannical government run amok.

`
 
I hear otherwise. Often from members of this forum.
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Depends what you want to make. Mass-produced stamped sheet metal products from the WWII era? No problem. You can cobble out AK-47s in the mountains of Pakistan with basic tools. That can be seen in this footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FinRqCocwGE

That's far from ideal if you want high quality firearms. I work in aerospace manufacturing. To make a precision, modern, high quality firearm, you need precision, high quality machinery. That and the pesky ancillaries of making ammunition. Buying primers, brass, bullets, and powder isn't making your own ammo. If those items are outlawed, who is making their own ammo from scratch?
 
In the UK and Australia, guns were registered, so if you didn't hand yours in you'd get a knock on your door...

The comparison with pot is invalid, because the penalities for possessing a small amount of pot are considerably less severe than those for possessing an illegal firearm.

If possession of one joint could get you a decade in prison, there would far fewer pot smokers.
If you have an illegal gun, you could end up losing everything.
 
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Meth users break the law.



Law-abiding citizens don't. And that's why they would turn in their guns.




The penalties for smoking pot are petty misdemeanors to misdemeanors. Breaking a gun law can be a felony. The repercussions are far greater which would make people more apt to follow the laws.
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