10 MM discussion (Real world benifits VS other service calibers)

[Aqeous]

For those who are interested . . . this might be a REAL problem

From link: http://www.10mmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=3741

"the DT Gold Dot went around 18-20" due to over expansion. Petals folded back and under the base of the bullet. This load had the smallest recovered diameter. The bullet is very distorted for a Gold Dot. The typical uniform and textbook expansion is not evident with this load in my experience. Point of note, this same bullet loaded in a .40S&W case and averaging 1008fps from my old G23 (factory Speer 180gr. Gold Dot load) had expanded diameters over .80" and were nearly the size of a quarter. I posted pics of recovered .40S&W 180gr. Gold Dots a few years back on GlockTalk, but these threads have been purged from the system as well as some 9mm and .45acp pics I had. This bullet definately seems to perform better at .40S&W velocities. While the bullet did not out-right fail, it didn't do as well as it did 340fps slower. Speer techs report 1300fps is within the operating window for this particular bullet and while it may not completely fail, it's obvious it does not perform optimally."


"Yup, it did the job. Thing is, it didn't do it any better than the loads with less recoil and blast. In fact, it's performance was a little lacking compared to the loads that were up to 340fps slower. What you have to ask yourself is if the added blast, recoil and wear are worth less terminal performance. As stated, the Speer techs were right in the bullet didn't completely fail, but it didn't perform better than it does at .40S&W velocities. In fact, the .40S&W 180gr. Gold Dot performed better. All these feral dogs ran about the same distance after being hit. The difference in muzzle energy between them (as little as 416fps for the PMC load and as much as 726fps for the DT load) didn't result in any different reaction from these animals. In fact, I got similar results from subsonic 9mm JHPs like the 147gr. Gold Dot. Sometimes they fell, sometimes they ran. Most of the time they only drop if both shoulders are broken. Thing is, if they have broken shoulders, chances are they can't run anyway, so it has nothing to do with muzzle energy."


Now I have been told over and over again that the DT DOES NOT EXCEED the gold dots capabilities. Well . . . would a DT rep chime in here and explain this . . .



"Mike has done an exceptional job at reviving the 10mm with loads that match and exceed the Norma loads of way back. However, technology went the other way with regards to bullet performance. Todays bullets are designed to expand at lower velocites than the bullets of just 10 years ago (let alone 15 to 20 years ago). While we do get the exhilerating BOOM that we expect from the 10mm with full-power loads, actual "on-target" performance may actually suffer."

 

[sqlbullet]

I hate it when I am late to a 10mm party.

Real World Benefit? 38% greater case capacity. Use how you choose.

As far as the rest of the objections...Heavy recoil, spendy ammo that you can't find, overpenetration, muzzle blast/flash.

Perceived recoil is as much a function of the gun in question as the cartridge. I bet money my Witness Match 10mm is 'easier' to shoot than a Glock G27. This may or may not be an issue (in any caliber) depending on your constraints on gun size.

Ammo cost and availability have never been an issue. Georgia Arms and Double Tap both have 10mm available at my doorstep. Wal-mart doesn't have 10mm, true, but I have to drive to Wal-mart. And, Georgia Arms 1000 round can is $15 more than the same ammo in 45ACP. Not exactly a deal breaker.

Overpenetration is a negative way to say under performance of the bullet. It failed to deliver all it's momentum to the target. Best solution would be to improve bullet design, not reduce the momentum. However, bullet design is moving towards optimum expansion at a slower speed. This does create a problem.

Muzzle Blast/Flash. A great article in American Handgunner pretty well established that Flash is as much a powder selection factor as anything. I am not educated in blast physics. I would assume it is related to the release of the pressure in the chamber and barrel when the obstruction (bullet) is ejected. This pressure is 7% greater in 10mm vs 40 S&W.

Final opinion. Unless you have very small hands that can't fit a Glock 20/29, Witness or 1911, you should seriously consider 10mm over 40S&W.

 

[Acera]

Aqeous, I did this spreadsheet a while back. It might help you with some more information. Pricing is probably out of date with the recent increases.

I like both my 10's


Why not call the .40 a 10mm Short

 

[Aqeous]

Wow . . . great spread sheet. Thanks allot.


I would like to here opinions on DT frag nasty ammunition.

135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARhOqkOoh9E


I'm visualizing in its performance in the 6 1/2" barrel of a S&W revolver. the link says three water gallons but I'd say its more like 2 with significant fragmentation. I am undecided whether or not I like that . . . But it certainly solves the "over-penetration issue" so many people bring up when speaking of the 10mm.

As a general rule of thumb:

Fragmentation + rifle = good (and) fragmentation + handgun/revolver = crap.


Anyone disagree with my math?

 

[Aqeous]

O.K never mind that . . .

The XPT controlled expansion in 180-200 gr looks much better . . .

 

[grimjaw]

In the real world, I can't afford to shoot even .40S&W on a regular basis, much less 10mm.

jm

 

[shooter429]

It is an excellent round

There really are no negatives if you like the round.

1. Cost: It is relative and anybody who shoots enough for it to be a factor, shoots enough to reload, which negates any cost differences.

2. Availability: If you are serious, this is also a non-issue. If you need the brass, go to any large store like Cabela's and you will find loaded ammo and components or you can buy online.

3. Recoil: Is no more a problem than with the hottest .357 or .45 +P. Again, it is major, but not uncomfortable.

4. Weapon availability: There are more all the time and the ones we have are excellent. The DW, S&W, Colt and Glock are all fine guns.

5. Too much power? No such thing. And, actually, more velocity can decrease penetration.

Basically, it boils down to if you like the caliber. There is nothing a .45 can do that the 10mm can't do at least as well.

Plus, Americans love underdogs

Shooter429

 

[s2brutus]

I have two Glock model 20s and am also a big 10mm fan like many of the previous respondents to this thread.

Aqeous, you were asking about real world experience with the 10?

I killed a 200 pound wild hog with mine many years ago. She dropped with one round of 180 grain hardball to the head. It blew the whole top out of her skull in one piece. I should've kept that. It would've made a nice ashtray and conversation piece.

 

[ahpd1992]

Man Im in a quandry

I been looking for a large bore revolver and had pretty much convinced myself to buy the 4" redhawk in 45colt. I was gonna have the cylinder machined for moon clips so it would also take 45acp.

Well now I found a S&W 610 and Im really confused. Ive always been intriqued by the 10mm and believe it would be powerful enough as a hunting sidearm. I prefer smith revolvers to rugers, but only by a small edge.
I also like the uniqueness of something a little different.


What to do what to do?

 

[Desertscout]

Take into account that you will lose some velocity through the bbl/cyl gap in the revolver. The 10 is at it's best in a semi-auto.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Uses; .357sig

Depending on the uses of the pistol; target, protection, duty, CC, etc I'd select a well made .357sig over the 10mm.
The .357sig is an accurate, powerful handgun round that works in compact/sub compact size pistols. The .357sig is in use by many US law enforcement agencies(more than the 10mm, ) and it feeds great. Most pistol mags hold the same # of .357 rounds as they would a .40S&W too.

With a .357sig you get .357mag specs in a semi auto pistol....

Good Stuff!

Rusty

 

[Appaloosa]

With a 10mm you get 41 mag specs in a semi auto pistol...

Better Stuff!

 

[BlindJustice]

Whenever I consider a 10MM Auto chambered handgun, the semi-autos don't appeal to me, but the S&W 610 with the 45+Oz weight seems to remain
on my Top 10 llist of handguns to acquire.

I have a S&W 1911 .45 ACP 5" Bbl. Weight empty is listed at 39 oz.
I have a Milt SParks Axiom - OWB strong side FBI cant - it's enough weight f
for me with a belt gun. Anything heavier and I'll have to get that Alessi
Field Master Shoulder rig for my 625 5" .45 ACP and heavier loads with the
.45 AUto RIm.

Getting back to why not a Semi-Auto 10MM Auto for me? Well, I do sorta have one with a barrel swap, got a Jarvis Inc. Stainless Steel Bbl. in
.400 CorBOn I think it only loses out to the 10MM AUto in bullet weights above in the 180 or greater range. I don't have to buy anything but 1911 .45 ACP magazines, might get a stronger recoil spring but the S&W as my gun
smith judges it has a stout spring already. The load I stock the most is

.400 CorBOn 155 gr. Hornady XTP JHP @ 1,350 FPS

Oh, and I just bought two boxes of some interesting
.45 ACP +P 200 gr. Hornady XTP JHP - factory claims
1,085 fps and I found a review where the writer chrono'd
the same load out of a 5" 1911 @ 1,055 fps I'll see how
snappy it is with the 1911 and 625 next saturday at the range.;

Let's check current prices at
STarline Brass per 500 pak
.40 S&W ---- $ 75.65
10MM Auto -- $ 78.95
.400 CorBon -- $ 101.55
.45 ACP ----- $ 78.75
.45 AUto RIm - $ 85.55
and just for ref.
.357 Magnum $ 67.30
9MM x 19 $ 61.95

I got a CZ 75B in 9MM x 19 recently to cut ammo costs for trips to the range andnot cut back on shooting numbers-wise

 

[Dilbert]

Is there any performance difference/recoil difference between a 5" 1911 and a 6" long slide 1911 using the 10mm?

 

[Supertac45]

Not impressed by the performance on deer. I don't have any photos to prove anything; but, a .45 cal Federal Hydra shok does way more damage to a deer's lungs. The range was a lot closer, about 30 yards.

 

[Desertscout]

I guess one has to decide for themselves how much damage needs to be done to be "impressive". I was quite happy with the way my 10mm preformed on deer although I may use a different bullet next time. At the range that I shot my last one it was, for all practical purposes, out of .45 ACP range.

 

[BlindJustice]

I think the post Title has a problem it reads

10 MM Auto and let's compare to OTHER service cartridges

hmm, what Armed Forces issue the 10MM AUto ?

Cartridcges for general issue service pistols of the armed forces of the
world are used as defense against two legged enemies.

I think the power of the 10MM AUto lends itself better to hunting situations

ALso there is a 10MM Magnum - it's a lengthend 10mm AUtomatic
but I don't know what is chambered for it.

Randall
.

 

[Timthinker]

Blindjustice, our original poster may include law enforcement organizations in his designation of services. If so, this might clearify matters. More to the point, I tend to believe that any of the .40 caliber or larger semi-autos will suffice for self-defense needs. Hunting and longer range target practice are different situations as others have noted. In the near future, I intend to discuss the 10mm Auto in a law enforcement related thread. Until then, I believe a 10mm Auto, .45 ACP or .40 S&W should meet civilian self-defense requirements.


Timthinker

 

[Desertscout]

The term, "service pistol" Has absolutely nothing to do with military and has been used for many years to describe handguns, both pistol and revolver, that are used by primarily by LE. The more popular term now is "service-style pistol" which denotes more of a size and caliber than than the fact that a particular gun actually ever served. The S&W Model 10 was once referred to as a service pistol. There is no .22 pistol or .454 revolver that has ever been referred to as such.

 

[Geno]

Colt is bringing back the 1911A1 Delta in 10MM. I need one.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Take into account that you will lose some velocity through the bbl/cyl gap in the revolver. The 10 is at it's best in a semi-auto.

But that is more than made up for by the additional barrel length common to revolvers.

Keep in mind the way barrels are measured for revolvers vs autos. The 4.6 inch barrel of a Glock 20 includes the chamber, the bullet only really has maybe three to three-and-a-half inches of travel before it exits the muzzle. Barrel length on a revolver is measure from the rear of the barrel to the muzzle, and doesn't include the cylinder. So a four inch barreled revolver actually has a longer barrel than a 4.6 inch barreled auto.

 

[DWFan]

The 10mm does offer some advantages over the .45 ACP, but the increase in recoil should be considered. The 10mm is not the equal of the .41 Magnum; it is closer to the .357 Magnum with comparable uses.

 

[Geno]

Three of the reasons that I have held off purchasing a 10mm are the following:

1) 99% of factory ammo, same as .38 Super ammo, is perversely underloaded. In some cases, by literally 350 to 400 FPS under max pressure. The 10mm, in many cases, is not more than 100 to 150 FPS faster than the .40 S&W. That is perverse. I call it "dumbing-down-the-loads". This fact nearly forces one to handload.

2) Many pistol are not built to hold up to full-power loads of 10mm. Even the Glock 20s and 29s are not fully supported chamber barrel. There are after-market barrel that do have fully supported chambers. The new Colt I have not yet seen.

3) It isn't cheap!!! I had better plan on having a .22LR slide for whatever pistol I buy in 10mm.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Desertscout]

The 10mm does offer some advantages over the .45 ACP, but the increase in recoil should be considered. The 10mm is not the equal of the .41 Magnum; it is closer to the .357 Magnum with comparable uses.

I don't know where you get your information but it is not from shooting these calibers.
The 10mm is a hell of a lot closer to a .41 than a .357. Jeez, how hard can this be? A 180 grain bullet at 1300 fps or a 200 gr at 1200 very much puts ANY .357 load to shame. Even the less powerful factory loads simply bury the .357. Even if you load the .357 up heavy with 180 grain bullets it doesn't come close the 10mm.

1) 99% of factory ammo, same as .38 Super ammo, is perversely underloaded. In some cases, by literally 350 to 400 FPS under max pressure. The 10mm, in many cases, is not more than 100 to 150 FPS faster than the .40 S&W. That is perverse. I call it "dumbing-down-the-loads". This fact nearly forces one to handload.

2) Many pistol are not built to hold up to full-power loads of 10mm. Even the Glock 20s and 29s are not fully supported chamber barrel. There are after-market barrel that do have fully supported chambers. The new Colt I have not yet seen.

3) It isn't cheap!!! I had better plan on having a .22LR slide for whatever pistol I buy in 10mm.

1. FPS and max pressure are not related so, not knowing for sure what you mean, this is kinda hard to address but I think I know what you are trying to say. I have chronographed many, many factory loads out of the 10mm and I have never yet found one that was that far under what is considered "max" velocity with any powder. The average factory 10mm is indeed about 100-150 fps faster than a .40 S&W with the same bullet. The .40 doesn't handle the 200 grain bullets as well. With handloads, it is not difficult to get 1330 fps out of 180's and 1200 out of 200's.

#2. ALL 10mm pistols are built to hold up to full-power 10mm loads. ESPECIALLY the G20. I have shot loads that were 3.5 grains over max in one of my G20's and even though it blew the primers out of a few of them, the gun held up fine and is still in service today. The "unsupported chamber" crap is internet BS.

#3. It's not any higher than a bunch of calibers out there and if you reload, it doesn't cost any more than the .40.