10mm vs. 45ACP
- Thread starter Hosh
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Real 10mm loads are on a different power level than .45 loads. The 10mm is not on the same "service caliber" power band as 9mm, .40, and .45. It can drive a pretty heavy bullet (say 180 grains or 200) significantly faster than a .45 can drive something of comparable weight.
For a non-reloader (a set that includes me), finding 10mm over-the-counter is a bit of challenge. It's not that you cannot find it, but that selection will be limited and prices often unreasonably/inexplicably high. But if you don't mind making it a point to seek out realtively affordable ammo, you can do alright. Georgia Arms offers reloads of 10mm at prices that are not crippling - where I live, I can pick up a can almost any weekend by going to the nearest gun show. It's not full house stuff (as Buffalo Bore would be), but you probably don't want to run hundreds or thousands of rounds of the real stuff through you gun, anyway.
My view, in summary: 10mm is a terrific round, particularly if you are someone who is concerned about the adequacy of service caliber rounds and do not want to give up magazine capacity by going to a revolver. With the 10mm, you don't have to choose between light and fast or slow and heavy; you can do heavy and fast. Plinking/training can get pricy, but it doesn't have to be significantly different than .45 ACP. Recoil is not extreme, but it's got a good whack to it, and those with flinching tendencies will have to be on guard. It's also fun to shoot at a public range, if you like conversations - people will ask what you've got.
For a non-reloader (a set that includes me), finding 10mm over-the-counter is a bit of challenge. It's not that you cannot find it, but that selection will be limited and prices often unreasonably/inexplicably high. But if you don't mind making it a point to seek out realtively affordable ammo, you can do alright. Georgia Arms offers reloads of 10mm at prices that are not crippling - where I live, I can pick up a can almost any weekend by going to the nearest gun show. It's not full house stuff (as Buffalo Bore would be), but you probably don't want to run hundreds or thousands of rounds of the real stuff through you gun, anyway.
My view, in summary: 10mm is a terrific round, particularly if you are someone who is concerned about the adequacy of service caliber rounds and do not want to give up magazine capacity by going to a revolver. With the 10mm, you don't have to choose between light and fast or slow and heavy; you can do heavy and fast. Plinking/training can get pricy, but it doesn't have to be significantly different than .45 ACP. Recoil is not extreme, but it's got a good whack to it, and those with flinching tendencies will have to be on guard. It's also fun to shoot at a public range, if you like conversations - people will ask what you've got.
jwgml
Member
ditto - keep it simple
Seven For Sure
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When the gun is designed properly for 10mm, brass does'nt fly too far. A Glock 20 with 20 or 22 pound recoil spring (depending on ammo) is a good example. Both Glock 10mm's have heavy slides, heavier than the Glock 21 and 30. In fact the Glock 29 slide is heavier than the Glock 21 slide. I put a Glock 36 slide on my 29 frame and recoil with all ammo is worse than running stock with hot 10mm ammo.
The 10mm is more powerful, but the 45acp is powerful enough. The big plus for the 45 is that ammo is readily available most places and MUCH less expensive than 10mm. And 45 ain't cheap, by any stretch. That's not a small consideration if you intend to spend much range/practice time with your pistol.
Willfully Armed
Member
It goes beyond 357.
Fishslayer
Member
Unless you're handloading, ammo availability & cost would be the biggest disadvantage of 10mm.
Full power 10mm would also require more practice to stay sharp, too.
The 10mm is awesome my favorite semi auto round. However after shooting hand loads and reading publicity about it I carry a sw j frame in 38 special. Because god forbid I had to use it the 10mm might as well be a 50bmg. Seriously consider before buying a super powerful full sized for cc. Or buy 2 pistols because well you can't ever have too many guns.
I'm new to both rounds. What are the energy figures for those two loads you mention?
Loosedhorse
member
Great posts, guys.
Pros for .45: cost and availability (ammo, and some guns) and proven effectiveness. The 1911 probably counts as its own pro.
Pros for 10: sheer performance; versatility (you want a 125 gr HP@ 1600 fps, or a 230 HC @ 1100?); and cost (gun--if you choose Glock).
I think everyone should own a 1911 .45, and many would agree. I also think everyone should own a Glock 10mm--and there would be less agreement, but there it is.
Pros for .45: cost and availability (ammo, and some guns) and proven effectiveness. The 1911 probably counts as its own pro.
Pros for 10: sheer performance; versatility (you want a 125 gr HP@ 1600 fps, or a 230 HC @ 1100?); and cost (gun--if you choose Glock).
I think everyone should own a 1911 .45, and many would agree. I also think everyone should own a Glock 10mm--and there would be less agreement, but there it is.
At one time the FBI used the 10mm, although in down loaded form.
In the past, the KY State Police carried / issued the full power 10mm; a state police agency using the round for duty should be a valid reason for an individual to consider it for SD, just saying.
Yes I know My 1076 is a Ky State Police turn in. While you and I know all handguns suck for stopping power and even the 10mm pales in compairison to rifles. The jury box isn't likely to have a gunny in it. Hopefully it'll be a good shoot and it doesn't get that far, but why tempt fate I'll stick with standard fare with factory fodder for every day carry.
1tonyj
Member
FBI SWAT still uses 10mm in their MP5's if I'm not mistaken, which is their primary weapon.
Willfully Armed
Member
They used full power ammo, because this is what was widely available.
I did a windstorm claim for a Kentucky state arson investigator... state patrol. They had their own brass marked KSP. nickle plated.
Full power factory 10mm ammunition is still available, just have to look online rather than at the local "mart".
Winchester still has the 175 Silvertip, same as ever.
Hornady 155 XTP (what I've got) has been around for a while.
There are others: Cor-Bon, Double Tap...
I like the 155 XTP @ 1,278 fps / 562# KE in my 29 SF, it's got plenty of KE (power) while still being controlable.
I don't see why using a 10mm with factory ammo would have any more negatives to a jury than if someone used a .357 Mag with factory ammo, power (KE) is about the same.
jackpinesavages
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Get your .45 in G21, and get the 10mm cnversion barrel. Simple. Explore the adventure.
SuperBoomTurbo
Member
One extra choice!
If you don't want to choose between 10 and .45, I have a possibility for you. Tanfoglio, made in Italy and imported by EAA, has a line of higher end pistols called Stock/Gold/Limited. I have a 10mm Stock II, which is by far the most accurate gun I've ever shot. Its a pussycat for recoil, even full house loads.
The kicker: In Europe, handgun laws are quite strict. In a lot of cases, you might only be able to own one handgun, so as with Tanfoglio, caliber conversions are very popular.
In the case of the Stock II, you have the choice of 10mm, .45, and .40 cal. Conversion kits are around $200 ( http://www.savvysurvivor.com/ ) and come complete with a slide, barrel, and appropriate springs.
The only thing that pesters me about the gun is that the magazine springs are crap from the factory. Upgrading to wolf +5 springs is almost mandatory. The good news is that a chap named Hennings (henningshootsgun.com I think) has tons of parts and hi-cap mags (I bought one that holds 18 rounds of 10mm and only sticks out of the magazine well about an inch. WOO HOO!) He's super friendly and a factory shooter to boot.
Certainly worth a look. The gun molds to your hand is quite slim for a double stack. It's nearly a half inch slimmer than my Taurus 9mm, and you can truly feel the difference.
If you don't want to choose between 10 and .45, I have a possibility for you. Tanfoglio, made in Italy and imported by EAA, has a line of higher end pistols called Stock/Gold/Limited. I have a 10mm Stock II, which is by far the most accurate gun I've ever shot. Its a pussycat for recoil, even full house loads.
The kicker: In Europe, handgun laws are quite strict. In a lot of cases, you might only be able to own one handgun, so as with Tanfoglio, caliber conversions are very popular.
In the case of the Stock II, you have the choice of 10mm, .45, and .40 cal. Conversion kits are around $200 ( http://www.savvysurvivor.com/ ) and come complete with a slide, barrel, and appropriate springs.
The only thing that pesters me about the gun is that the magazine springs are crap from the factory. Upgrading to wolf +5 springs is almost mandatory. The good news is that a chap named Hennings (henningshootsgun.com I think) has tons of parts and hi-cap mags (I bought one that holds 18 rounds of 10mm and only sticks out of the magazine well about an inch. WOO HOO!) He's super friendly and a factory shooter to boot.
Certainly worth a look. The gun molds to your hand is quite slim for a double stack. It's nearly a half inch slimmer than my Taurus 9mm, and you can truly feel the difference.
m1911.10mm
Member
I didn't really buy into this concern about the cost of ammo until I actually fired my first 10mm the first time.
My first 10mm is my 1911 with a cone barrel. A few years ago, I owned that same handgun in .45. It was extremely easy to shoot and I wasn't really concerned about the fact that I only fired maybe three times a year. If you are only firing three times a year, the cost of ammo may not need to be a concern. That handgun in 10mil has turned out to be a completely different story. It is going to require a lot more than three range trips per year to gain any sort of proficiency.
Something like that 180gr Remington UMC is easy enough. Anything else can become a good deal more difficult real quick.
I like to think that each of the 10mm's made kind of have their own personality. I can think of a good Special Purpose for each of them.
I picked up my fourth one today. If you were something like an oilfield worker working alone in one of the border counties in Texas, this sure would be nice to have.
I think it's the size of the grip that makes this look like a small handgun in this pic. It's actually a pretty stout handgun.
This may be what happens when you take your Hydrocodone (prescribed) and then go gun shopping on the interweb.
.
My first 10mm is my 1911 with a cone barrel. A few years ago, I owned that same handgun in .45. It was extremely easy to shoot and I wasn't really concerned about the fact that I only fired maybe three times a year. If you are only firing three times a year, the cost of ammo may not need to be a concern. That handgun in 10mil has turned out to be a completely different story. It is going to require a lot more than three range trips per year to gain any sort of proficiency.
Something like that 180gr Remington UMC is easy enough. Anything else can become a good deal more difficult real quick.
I like to think that each of the 10mm's made kind of have their own personality. I can think of a good Special Purpose for each of them.
I picked up my fourth one today. If you were something like an oilfield worker working alone in one of the border counties in Texas, this sure would be nice to have.
I think it's the size of the grip that makes this look like a small handgun in this pic. It's actually a pretty stout handgun.
This may be what happens when you take your Hydrocodone (prescribed) and then go gun shopping on the interweb.
.
MachIVshooter
Member
The Delta myth is annoying, but to suggest that the 10xx series had issues is just plain silly. They are, quite simply, the strongest normal-size 10mm platform around. The only guns that outclass them at the monstrous AMT Automag IV and LAR Grizzly, which were designed to handle the .45 Win Mag.
dsb1829
Member
I own a couple handguns in either caliber. Personally the advantage of 10mm shows as a woods/hunting gun. For cdp the 45acp is a better choice. It has less recoil and plenty of energy for 2-legged predators. I have really fallen for the 10mm platform since I do hunt. It packs a lot more ammo in the same size gun. It also shoots very flat from 10-75yd, which is ideal for hunting. If I never went hunting, then I would choose 45acp hands-down.
A few comments:
The EAA guns in 10mm have a horrible reliability track record. Never known anyone who owned one that did not have trouble.
The early Colt 1911's had durability issues. I understand they have corrected those problems, but I still don't care for a 10mm on a 1911 platform. I love 1911's as well as anyone, but in 45 ACP only.
The S&W 1006 series of guns are tanks, probably the best of the 10mm guns if you want durability and accuracy.
Of current production 10mm's, either the Glock 20 or 29 are the best guns available for the money. SOME of the 1911's may work OK, but I still don't trust them.
For personal protection from humans, the 10mm offers no real advantage over 45. I own a G-20 and really like the gun, but I understand it is a niche gun. But it fills a very important niche for me. If I'm hunting it is with a rifle, but I do camp and backpack in black bear country a lot. Having 16 rounds available that will slightly better the best 357 mag loads in a gun about the same length as a 3" revolver, and much lighter, makes for a great package. My G-20 is used a lot, but if I'm not in bear country, I have other guns that are a better choice.
The EAA guns in 10mm have a horrible reliability track record. Never known anyone who owned one that did not have trouble.
The early Colt 1911's had durability issues. I understand they have corrected those problems, but I still don't care for a 10mm on a 1911 platform. I love 1911's as well as anyone, but in 45 ACP only.
The S&W 1006 series of guns are tanks, probably the best of the 10mm guns if you want durability and accuracy.
Of current production 10mm's, either the Glock 20 or 29 are the best guns available for the money. SOME of the 1911's may work OK, but I still don't trust them.
For personal protection from humans, the 10mm offers no real advantage over 45. I own a G-20 and really like the gun, but I understand it is a niche gun. But it fills a very important niche for me. If I'm hunting it is with a rifle, but I do camp and backpack in black bear country a lot. Having 16 rounds available that will slightly better the best 357 mag loads in a gun about the same length as a 3" revolver, and much lighter, makes for a great package. My G-20 is used a lot, but if I'm not in bear country, I have other guns that are a better choice.
Cocked & Locked
Member
Glock 20 10mm suits me fine...
intercooler
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I have two EAA 10's that just flat out rock the nuclear stuff
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