158gr +P FBI load LHP in Airweight snub... darn my luck

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Silent Bob

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Finally found some Remington FBI load .38 Special last night and took out it out the range today to test in my S&W 638 Airweight snub. Been doing quite a bit of research on snubs and defensive loads here lately and had been intending to carry this round due to its established effectiveness in snubs. Was fearing the recoil after reading a number of posts in online forums where people said their hand was hurting after two or three cylinders (or even two or three shots to some people).

Turns out my fear was totally unfounded, didn't seem to kick much harder then the 158gr LWSCs I fired first. I was intending to only fire a few cylinders but instead shot off the whole box of 50 with no more hand pain then firing standard pressure rounds. They were louder, though, and I liked how they landed on the target I had, set at fifteen feet (spitting distance).

The problem? One of the rounds, the fifth in the third or fourth cylinder I fired, jumped the crimp and locked the freaking cylinder. I had read a number of posts that said this wasn't a problem in the Airweights, only the Airlites. Disheartening, to say the least. Well, no FBI load for me now.

Guess I'll look at the 135gr Gold Dots next.
 
The FBI swc's also back out starting after 3 rounds in my S&W 340PD.I did several tests and never had any problems with firing two of them in a row.Therefore,my first two are FBI's,the next one is a 125 gr Corbon 38+P and the last two are 125 gr .357 Gold Dots.
Theres more than one way to skin a cat.:)
 
Any chance you could post a close-up photo of some of them.
I'd really like to see how much crimp they put on them.

Maybe a reloading press and a .38 Spl seat & crimp die would make it all better?

rc
 
Unfortunately, I don't have a digital camera. No reloading equipment either. I do wonder if I had one with a bad crimp from the factory, but there's that bad luck thing again.
 
I have seen two versions of the Remington FBI load. The first box I bought had the bullet slightly further out of the case, and a solid crimp. The second box had the bullet seated deeper, and no visible crimp.
 
I recrimp all lead ammo that I plan to use in my 642 Airweight with a heavy roll crimp using a Redding Profile Crimp Die. It helps but will not always prevent some pull in my 342 Airlite.

Your grip on the gun can also affect bullet pull. The more solid your grip the less the gun moves in recoil.

The best SD ammo for resisting bullet pull I have found is the Speer 135gr Gold Dot 38SPL+P. Speer made a special effort to address bullet pull when they designed this ammo.

Buffalo Bore claims their ammo won't pull even in light guns. I notice they use a very heavy roll crimp. They say they also do some other things they learned from loading for the heaviest revolver cartridges.
 
I have fired 200 standard pressure rounds of RNLs, 50 rounds of lead wadcutters, and 50 lead semi wadcutters with no instances of bullet jump.

This was my first time to experience the phenomenon

One thing that I thought was a little odd was that the bullet had completely came out of the case, is this normal? My impression was that normally they protrude enough to lock up the cylinder but I can't remember reading about them coming completely out of the case. I wish I remember checking to see if any powder came out of the case when I finally got the cylinder to swing out and dumped the cases. I'm starting to wonder if I just had a defective round.

The other 49 rounds fired without incident.
 
Seems likely.

Assuming they were crimped properly, the bullet would eventually jump the crimp, the start pulling further each shot. The residual crimp & case neck tension would still be dragging, kicking & screaming, all the way down the bullet shank.

Can't imagine one just falling clear out!!

rc
 
I do wonder if I had one with a bad crimp from the factory, but there's that bad luck thing again.
Click to expand...

I think that is probably the case. I extensively tested the Remington FBI load in my 642 before carrying it, specifically looking for evidence of crimp jumping. I even chose 3 rounds and recycled those 3 rounds in the cylinder about 6 or 7 times over (fire 2, reload 2, repeat). The most movement I measured was about .002".
 
I have fired several boxes of each Remington, Winchester and Federal FBI Loads in my M638 and M642 and not one has jumped crimp. I wouldn't stop using the FBI Load just because one round was made poorly. IMO that was a fluke and it could have happened with any type of ammo, not only one made with a 158gr LSWC/HP bullet.
 
Try a box or two of the Buffalo Bore 158 gr SWCHP +P ammo.
In a lightweight snubby, your hand WILL feel it quickly. They are significantly more powerful than the major mfg +p 158s.
The Buffalo Bore 158 SWCHPs have never jumped their crimp when I have fired them. IMHO, they are the best of whats available for my carry snub.

Roger
 
I was under the impression that S & W has in their manuals what ammo you could and couldn't shoot in the alloy revolvers with respect to bullet weights. I thought that +P lead bullets not to be fired because they would jump the crimp.
 
Another vote for the Buffalo Bore 158g +p SWCHP. I tested their ability to resist jumping by shooting 10 rounds with one marked one unfired in a 642. After 10 shots, the bullet hadn't moved. They're also almost impossible to pull with an inertia bullet puller.

They're a head and shoulders above the next round in terms of performance too.
 
My experience has been similar to that posted by ArchAngelCD.

That doesn't mean an occasional light crimp might not make it through the production process, though.

Over the last several years I settled on the Rem R38S12 158gr LHP +P load as my preferred 'heavy' +P load, but I still inspect and test-fire rounds to look for QC issues that might surface in various boxes/cases.

Also, it's not my exclusive defensive carry load for my J-frames. (Not always easily available, and I've only got a few boxes left from the last cases bought.) I also have a small assortment of 125/130/135gr +P loads I've seen do well enough in some hosted gel events where Heavy Cloth & 4-layer denim tests were used.

Felt recoil? Depends on the shooter and the J-frame involved. I've usually found that my "comfort limit" is reached after 150 rounds of +P loads are fired. Not all +P are the same, though. I was using some Speer 158gr TMJ +P loads for a while that seemed to exhibit a LOT more felt recoil than my W-W & Rem 158gr LHP +P loads.

FWIW, here's some results observed from a recent gel demo event. Bear in mind this is from the usual limited demo done at a manufacturer/vendor event, but it is interesting. It involves the new W-W .38 PDX1/RA38B +P load.

I'll compare the .38 RA38B results against the RA9TA 127gr +P+ & RA9T 147gr T-Series results. The .38 was fired from a "2 inch" J-frame snub.

Heavy Cloth test:
.38 - 886fps/13 1/4" pen/.53" exp
127gr +P+ - 1203fps/12"/.63"
147gr - 927fps/14"/.58"

Drywall:
.38 - 891fps/10 3/4"/.53"
127gr +P+ - 1199fps/11 1/4"/.59"
147gr - 925fps/13"/.52"

Laminated Auto Glass:
.38 - No vel reading/7 3/4"/.52"
127gr +P+ - 1196fps/7 1/4"/.51"
147gr - 939fps/9"/.47"

The new .38 +P bonded load isn't looking too shabby so far, it seems ...

It will interesting to see what further non-factory testing reveals about its consistency of performance, of course.

BTW, for clarification, I checked and confirmed that the two product lines, the S38PDB (PDX1) and the RA38B, are the same bullet/load. The difference is in the packaging. The S38PDB is the OTC 20/rd box sold to the public and the RA38B is the Ranger LE offering in the tan 50/rd box.

I might have to get some more of this new load if I can't easily get more of the Rem LHP +P load, I guess.
 
As mentioned the warning was for the 11 oz scandium series and then only with 125gr or LIGHTER bullets in 357 mag. Your a far cry from that criteria. I'd be blaming the ammo not the gun. Got a press, try crimping it.

FWIW, I've shot allot of +P ammo out of my 11 oz 360 with zero issues.
 
As mentioned the warning was for the 11 oz scandium series and then only with 125gr or LIGHTER bullets in 357 mag.
Click to expand...

The ammunition warning is sort of two-fold.

The bullet pull issue can occur with the Sc/Ti/PD models regardless of bullet weight. Jacketed ammunition can take a firmer crimp than lead, which is why the Ti .38's had their barrels marked for jacketed ammunition.

The less than 120gr restriction for Magnum loads has to do with helping reduce the possibility of gas erosion of the Ti cylinders. (Page 12 of new model revolver manual).

When I was checking my M&P 340, though, I found a couple of Magnum loads which exhibited bullet pull even though my gun didn't have a titanium cylinder and weighed within an ounce of my Airweight 642. (I replaced the Bantam grip with a regular set of rubber grip stocks, which brought the weight up to about 14.3 oz, as I recall.)

The sleeved barrel (alloy sleeve) and alloy yoke reduce the weight in the M&P 340 compared to the 642/442, even though it has a PVD coated stainless steel cylinder.
 
I have the same problem with my 642. While shooting Fed 158 LSWCHP+P I think they are 38e. I only let them come out enough to stop rotation of barrell. I have had this problem with lead bullets. I really like the load and its history but at this time. I cant carry it. I have gone to 135 Gold dots, Critical defense or Reminton 125+p Golden sabers
 
I have shot Rem 38S12s extensively (the current Remington factory 38 Special 'FBI load) in my M&P 340 (Scandium, 13.3 oz.) as well as the Speer 38 Spl 135-gr. rounds and have experienced NO crimp jump issues.

It sounds to me like you got a round that got past QC. I'll continue to carry the Rem factory loads, or my own reloads built with the 158-gr. LSWC-HP bullets from Speer or Hornady.

Jim H.
 
I've never had this problem with my 642, but my 158 grain LSWCHP+P is by Federal....but I don't know if that matters.
 
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