1860 Army Fluted Cylinder - loads?

[oldelm]

Hi there folks,.....I'm new to the forum here, and have a few questions about the Uberti 1860 Army w/ fluted cylinder.

Will an Uberti 1860 Army with fluted cylinder handle the same loads as one with a rebated cylinder? Just wondering if the fluted cylinder will be weaker by design.
Also, does anyone know if you can put a rebated '60 Army cylinder in a '60 Army fitted with fluted cylinder? In other words,are the cylinders interchangeble.

thanks!

 

[P95Carry]

I am of the opinion that fluting makes no difference - not a significant one. I did a drawing some while back to try and illustrate this - I'll see if I can find.

The only ''bonus'' I see in having no fluting is a marginal ''buttressing'' effect between adjacent chambers. Stand by while I look for the diagram.

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My, that was quick - actually found it!!. Note from this how I am trying to illustrate the usual weakest point, at same time trying to show too that loss of material with fluting really does little to weaken the cylinder, in itself.




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Oh BTW - I obtained a spare cyl years ago for my first Colt Army - it was plain but original was fluted - if correct dimensions for gun then should be no probs at all re interchangability.

 

[BigG]

I am no expert but I don't think you can put enough BP into the chamber to blow the cylinder. The old Colts were made of wrought iron and were probably even weaker than the steel used in today's replicas. YMMV

 

[oldelm]

P95Carry........your drawing really helps explain things. Very clearly. Many thanks for the quick reply!

BigG........thanks for yer input. I never knew the old Colts were made of wrought iron. Makes me feel more comfortable about the Uberti fluted replica.

cheers!

 

[unspellable]

flutes

P95Carry,

I'll agree the fluting probaly makes next to no difference in strength of the cylinder.

How ever, the weakest point on most cyliders is not the outer wall, but the web between chambers. If a cylinder has a catastrophic blow out and is then subjected to a good autopsy, nine times out of ten it will be the web that failed. Typically the web fails on one side of the chamber, then the wall is peeled up taking the web on the other side with it and opening three chambers. Often carries away the top strap. This is the reason for five holes in the super duper mags, thicker webs, the outside wall stays the same. This is illustrated by my two Taurus Raging Bulls. One is chambered for the 454 Casull and has five holes. It's brother is chambered for the 45 Colt and has six holes. (Yes, you read that right, 45 Colt.)

As an inetresting experiment I saw a S&W test fired with a flat ground on the thinnest part of the wall on the first chamber, a slot cut length wise in the thin part of the wall on the second chamber, and the third chamber unmodified but fired into a barrel with no bore. In all three cases things stayed glued together. Gives you new respect for the kind of pressures involved when they do blow. A double charge of smokeless powder will give you 16 times the normal pressure.

 

[P95Carry]

unspellable - thx for the info.

I guess more often that not when contemplating cyl strengths, I consider the Smith location of bolt notches too - when considering integrity. Ruger is good in not placing those on exact center where thinnest. My repro Rem BP also has a slight offset.

My drawing was I admit rather basic - and perhaps my choice of weakest point is flawed but - certainly, I do think that apart from any perceived slight ''buttress'' effect then fluted or non-fluted hardly matters.

I admit too - on reflection - I prefer my 686 with the old 6 chambers, compared with the newer 7 shot - where by default the web's must be thinner - and point taken too re the Bull - I have one too in .454 and also the SRH in .454 - but that does go to six.

Thanks for illuminating me!!

 

[mec]

Colt was so proud of the new steel technologies- "Silver Spring Steel" from the Bessimer process that he first brought out the army with Fluets to make it lighter. After some of them blew up, he went back to the plain cylinders.
(got this from R.L. Wilson-Colt, An American Legend) Didn't consider it an issue with the Pocket Police .36 revolvers.

I don't think it makes a difference any more. The metals used in the replicas is plenty strong. I've used 35 grains of pyrodex P and swiss in my army and don't worry about it.

 

[Chawbaccer]

I think they would of made the cylinders shorter if it ws dangerous to give them a full load.

Second part: If the cylinders are made by the same manufacturer I think that they could be interchanged, however I would be sure to check the timing.

 

[unspellable]

Colt's return to non-fluted cylinders

Colt probably went back to the non-fluted cylinder because in those days they did not have the techniques we have today for doing an autopsy on the blown cylinder and determining where it really failed.

To my mind the choice of fluted vs non-fluted boils down to styling appearance and weight. When you get to 44 Mag and upwards you begin to appreciate a little weight in the revolver. On the other hand I think a non-fluted cylinder just looks wrong on a S&W. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Unspellable,

You wrote, "How ever, the weakest point on most cyliders is not the outer wall, but the web between chambers. If a cylinder has a catastrophic blow out and is then subjected to a good autopsy, nine times out of ten it will be the web that failed."

I would be interested in the evidence leading to that conclusion, as it has not been my observation. I have seen 10 or 12 blown/cracked revolver cylinders, and all failed at the outer wall. I have checked several revolvers, both modern and antique, and in all cases the web between the chambers was at least as thick, and often significantly thicker than the outer wall. (Measured at the rear of the cylinder in the case of modern guns with shoulders in the chambers.)

When a cylinder blows and more than one chamber is affected, it is from the breaking or peeling effect as the metal from the first chamber tries to bend and lift. This can break the webs on either side of the failed chamber, but that is a secondary effect, not the primary area of the failure.

As mentioned above, modern percussion pistols are made from far better material than the old guns were. The old Colts were indeed made from wrought iron, right into the cartridge era. When modern writers mention the time (c. 1900) when Colt advertised that their new production guns could use smokeless powder, they often talk about "improved steel". Not so; the change was not an improvement of the steel, it was a change from iron TO steel. Secondarily, that was the original reason for case hardening on those guns; steel can be hardened to resist wear; iron cannot, so the only alternative was to give the metal a surface hardening.

Jim

 

[mainmech48]

IIRC, the flutes not only reduced the weight significantly, but were also usefull in reducing fouling build-up under sustained firing.

With modern steels, even the relatively "mild" ones used used for most BP replicas, I don't believe that you could damage a cylinder with any load of BP or volumetrically measured substitute you could cram a bullet over unless it had been seriously weakened by corrosion or the like or there was an obstruction in the bore.

 

[Nodak]

My sole experience with cylinder failure occured in 1970 with a Smith 36. I got it in a trade and did not check it closely as it was as new and I was in a hurry. I don't know what was fired in the little 5 shooter but the chambers were bulged, all 5.

After firing 5 wadcutters in the gun, the cases had to be driven out. I never miked the brass or cylinder but both appeared to have a uniform ring or bulge immediately ahead of the index notches. There was no indication of cylinder failure at the notch from examining the brass.

I dearly love the Python but the Smith seems just as stout and will stay in time when the Colt is worn past proper indexing.

Now that I started the Colt vs. Smith flame wars, I will get my asbestos drawers on.

 

[unspellable]

Jim Keenan,

I get in trouble this way. I remeber things for years and by then no longer have the original source available.

But the story begins with a Smith & Wesson revolver subjected to torture testing. One chamber had the outer wall ground flat to make it thinner. One chamber had a slot cut in the outer wall from the rear to the midpoint. Both chambers held when fired. I think this test was done in part to counter the idea that the S&W's bolt notch at the outer wall center compromises the strength.

Now when there is a catastrophic cylinder failure, it's really difficult to say where it failed first based on a visual examination alone. A metallurgist will do a microscopic examination of the fracture surfaces to determine where it first failed. I may have spoken out of turn saying nine out of ten fail at the web, I don't really know the proportions, but the majority do fail at the web. The web may be thicker than the outer wall, an obvious design point if you expect the web to fail first. Once the failure begins, you get the peeling effect and this can fracture the outer wall on the chamber fired. But typically you see the outer wall from mid point to midpoint of the adjacent chambers blown away and the two webs fractured at about the midpoint where they are thinnest. The outer chunk will hit the backstrap pretty hard and suffer more damage at that point too.

You will note that on several revolvers chambered for the super duper cartridges, they went to five holes for a thicker web but did not increase the cylinder diameter to get a thicker outer wall. The reverse happend with the Raging Bull. It was first chambered for the 454 Casull with five holes, then for the 45 Colt with six holes. Same cylinder diameter on both, same outer wall thickness on both. If the outer wall were the weak point, five holes in the 454 wouldn't buy anything for strength. But it does buy something if the web is the weak link. Keep in mind that the stresses involved are not uniform all the way around the chamber even though the pressure against the chamber walls is fairly uniform.. It's possible that more stress is placed on the web than on the outer wall.


Did Colt really change from iron to steel cylinders as late as 1900? There was something Colt advertised as "Silver Steel" that they imported from England in the cap & ball era. Steel was available in small sized pieces from way back. All the head aches in developing the steel industry revolved around practical methods to produce steel in large enough pieces to use for long barrels or construction framing. (The Eiffel Tower is made out of iron.)


BTW: I called Taurus to find out when my 45 Colt was made. They denied ever having made any such thing. I said, "I'm sitting here with one in my hand. It says 45 Colt on the barrel and has six holes that are 45 Colt sized. After a week or two they finally admitted to making a few. I originally bought this revolver in the hope that they used the 454 reamer to make the holes, but no such luck they are 45 Colt sized. The SAAMI specs for the 454 Casull call for a very tight chamber, for the 45 Colt a very loose chamber. Something that does not enhance the 45 Colt's reputation for accuracy or case life. So now I am hanging on to it just because I'm the only kid on the block with a 45 Colt Raging Bull.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Unspellable,

I am like you in remembering things but not the source. FWIW, I think Colt's "silver steel" was used in their springs, not in the whole gun, and was advertised that way.

The usual reason for going to five chambers is not a matter of gaining chamber web thickness, but of moving the cylinder stop notch away from the thin part of the chamber wall. This was not much concern in the old Colt DA revolvers, since the cylinder stop was well off to the side, but on guns like the Colt SAA type and the S&W type, where the stop is centered, the notch can weaken the cylinder wall.

I also remember those tests, and they were indeed done to show that the cylinder stop notch was not a weak area. That is true to a point, mainly because on S&W guns it is fairly small, even in large calibers. (Remember, when dealing with pounds per square inch, the square inches do matter.)

But on the Colt SAA type, the cylinder stop notch is larger and the cylinder wall is (I would think significantly) weaker at that point for that reason.

We agree that failure usually results in the webs at the sides being ruptured, but not on the sequence. I will stick by what I said. I have seen revolver failures where the only damage was a chamber split at the outer side; there was no damage to the web or to adjacent chambers.

I will note that in one case I saw (a .44 Magnum Ruger fired with a triplex(!!!) load - yes, three kinds of powder) the tops of three chambers blew off, the two adjacent webs split, and the top strap broke. BUT, the empty case and the unfired round in the adjacent chambers were intact, and showed no signs of being damaged by the pressure. The chamber walls had simply departed, where if the initial pressure had cracked the web first, the cartridges should have been at least dented, if not split or (in the case of the unfired one) discharged.

Jim

 

[unspellable]

web vs wall

I'm not saying that the web ALWAYS fails first, just that the web fails first in the majority of cases. In a big five holer the web is enough thicker that the outer wall would probably fail first. The perversity of nature applies here and in a catastrophic failure almost anything can happen. It's like holding your golf club straight up and lightning hits the guy next to you. It's still not advisable to hold your golf club straight up in a thunderstrom. (Unless it's a two iron, not even God can hit a two iron.)

The five hole design is does tend to move the notch to a thicker area, but still, the primary reason is the thicker web. There are revolvers with off set notches that still go to five holes for the heavy stuff. There is a tendency to think of this as a hoop problem where the thinnest part of the hoop is the weakest for internal pressure. But the revolver chamber is not a hoop, it is far from symmetrical and a close study of the stresses and strains involved can yield some non-intuitve results.

 

[johncantiusgarand]

COLT advertised that their "silver steel" allowed them to streamline their revolver with no loss of strength. They also made the (obviously rediculous) claim that the springy nature of the "silver steel" pushed the bullet out faster. I remember reading that in a reprint of an old advertisement. I think we all agree that the steels of today are of much higher quality than what COLT had available back then. But I do think it is safe to say that the 1860 Army's cylinder and barrel were not just wrought iron.

 

[J.T. Gerrity]

Colt contracted for steel for the Walkers from Naylor and Co. Sheffield, England. Colt used them to supply steel for his products until the early 1850s, when he shifted to Thomas Firth & Sons, also of Sheffield. The specifications for the Walker declared it should be made of "the best cast and forged steel". The closest thing to "wrought iron" was a requirement that the frames be made of the best "gun iron, to be case-hardened".

"Silver steel" was a high-quality spring steel that Colt claimed was even stronger than his normal gun steel, and so allowed him to reduce the gap between chambers as well as other reductions in the size and weight of the revolver. This lead to the introduction of the 1860 army of half the weight of the previous model, the so-called "Dragoon".

 

[oneshooter]

Bottom line is this: Take the gun to the range, load with 30gr of 3fg Goex, fiber wad, .457rb, and ENJOY!
I have had a fluted 1860 for 20 years and find that the balance is better than the non-fluted.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[Old Fuff]

I believe that test on a Smith & Wesson K-38 cylinder that was mentioned in above posts was written up in a issue of Gun Digest many years ago, but I don't remember the year. Perhaps with this clue someone else can find it.

Concerning modern reproductions of Colt cap & ball revolvers with fluted cylinders: Given modern materials I don't think anyone has anything to worry about so long as black powder or an approved substitute is used. I have never heard of one blowing up, and if this did happen the manufacturers would have discontinued these versions long ago. Also the Italian revolvers are proof tested at levels well above any approved shooting load.

 

[mec]

Since this thread started, I encountered a collector at a dallas gun show who had one of the fluetted armies ( original). He told me that these were not the very first armies in production as I had originally thought but came early after introduction and were dropped after some blew up. I've packed 40 grains of goex, swiss and equivalent volumes of substitute in mine and don't believe there is any risk associated with the modern replicas. Pretty hard on the loading lever though.

40 Grains Goex FFFg 992Average 34 extreme spread 6
40 grains Goex FFFg with Wonder Wad 942 extreme spread 30
40 Grains Swiss FF 1042 average extreme spread 49

I have seen cylinders blown into three pieces with the top strap humped, or entirely missing. the upper half of the cylinder departed in two pieces and it was impossible to tell if the fracture began between the chambers or on the outer wall above the fired chamber. The cases and loaded rounds in the adjacent chambers were flattened. the first such gun I saw was an old model super black hawk blown when a K Mart sales person sold a can of unique to a new reloader and supplied him with data for 2400. He got off a shot or two before it blew. I also saw a star maching loaded 38 colt officers match with a cylinder notch blown through from a double or tripple charge of bullseye.

 

[RecoilRob]

The thin part of the cyl might distort first...which bends the webs between cyls enough to break them. I haven't seen any pics of a blowup where the outer wall wasn't split in half.

Perhaps the between cyl walls DO fail/fracture first...in a technical sense...but I think the outer cyl must stretch to create a bending moment to crack the walls first. Every shot stretches the cylinder, hence the ability of a strain gauge to measure the pressure. The elasticity of the outer cyl could cause web failure before it lets go.....but I think the pic of the slightly blown up Vaquero shows a case where the outer wall let go and that cracked the web...but didn't take the whole top of the gun off.

 

[Old Fuff]

Yes, but I don't think you did that with any charge of black powder, and in this thread the issue is black powder pressures vs. a fluted cylinder used in a modern Colt 1860 Army replica. Without question, a double charge of smokeless powder can blow up just about any revolver.