1911 Failure Revisited

[Sport45]

I posted a couple of weeks ago about a feed problem I am having with my 1991A1. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=164054 I incorrectly identified this as a "nose up" jam. I guess I've just been clearing it for so long I quit looking. Anyway, I'm back and I have pictures to help describe the problem. In every case, the rounds you see are live. The spent brass seems to eject fine and for the most part heads in the 4 o'clock direction. Occasionally the brass goes 1 o'clock and sometimes straight up. I've had this failure on every magazine I own. Yesterday I shot 84 rounds through the factory colt 7-rounders (new springs) and Mec-Gar 8 rounders (new factory replacements) without a hitch and then had 5 jams in the next 3 magazines. All of the jams yesterday were with Mec-Gar magazines. The load is 4.7 gr of titegroup under a 200gr LSWC in mixed brass. The gun has a new Wolff 17# recoil spring. Any help you can lend would be greatly appreciated.

Jam 1:



Jam 2:



Jam 5:

 

[Jim Watson]

In Jam 2 is that a fired case partway out of the chamber and a fresh round coming up? In the other pictures are the cockeyed rounds loaded or empty?

I think it all goes back to failures to extract fully. The extractor is off in some dimension or just does not have enough tension.

 

[Sport45]

Thanks Jim. In all of the pictures the rounds you see are live. I don't think I've ever seen a spent round stuck in the action of this pistol.

 

[ajax]

Sports are those 200gr lead wad cutters in there. If they are how long have you been shooting them. I ask because of jam 2. I thought it looked like one but its hard to tell.

 

[riverdog]

Jam 2 looks like a double feed; or am I seeing something not in the picture? One round nosed into the chamber but the slide is jammed on the next round in the mag

I'll be interested to see what Tuner has to say, but my initial thought was the extractor needs to be replaced and the new extractor properly tensioned.

Weak mag springs also comes to mind. My 1991A1 doesn't like 8 round Wilson mags but runs great with 7 round mags of any brand. 8 round mags use thinner gauge springs and there are fewer coils. I was consistently 50/50 in getting a loose last round sitting on top of teh mag with the slide locked back.

 

[Sport45]

Sports are those 200gr lead wad cutters in there. If they are how long have you been shooting them. I ask because of jam 2. I thought it looked like one but its hard to tell.

Yes, they are swaged lead SWC's. I've been shooting them maybe 2 or 3 years now. Just started having the troubles a few months back.

 

[1911Tuner]

Jammin'

Howdy Sport,

Look s like a problem with the magazine releasing the round too early or too easily...due to feed lips not being the correct distance apart. Also could be a
weak spring. Sure...it can happen on more than one mag. 3 can be bad just like one can be.

Check your PMs

 

[Sport45]

Jam 2 looks like a double feed; or am I seeing something not in the picture? One round nosed into the chamber but the slide is jammed on the next round in the mag

I'll be interested to see what Tuner has to say, but my initial thought was the extractor needs to be replaced and the new extractor properly tensioned.

Weak mag springs also comes to mind. My 1991A1 doesn't like 8 round Wilson mags but runs great with 7 round mags of any brand. 8 round mags use thinner gauge springs and there are fewer coils. I was consistently 50/50 in getting a loose last round sitting on top of teh mag with the slide locked back.

I think you're right about the double feed. In every case the round looks to be in front of the ejector hook. How does the first round of a double feed get in? Is it a recoil/inertia thing?

 

[Old Fuff]

I agree with Tuner. Good magazine with correct springs and followers usually work. Eight-round magazine, especially with weak springs or springs that have taken a set, don't. Also check to see if the lips have spread in those magazines that are giving you jams.

Bad magazines will stop a good gun every time, and there is a lot of junk going around.

Edited to add: A weak spring won't feed the round quickly enough for the breechface to catch it and start it under the extractor, so the bottom of the slide pushes the round forward, but only for a short distance.

 

[1911Tuner]

Good Gun Gone Bad

In the distance, I hear the voices chanting:

"Maaaaaaagaaaaaaaaziiiiine...Maaaaaaaaagaaaaaaaaziiiiiiiiine...

Could it be the ghostly song of John Moses?

 

[Sport45]

Edited to add: A weak spring won't feed the round quickly enough for the breechface to catch it and start it under the extractor, so the bottom of the slide pushes the round forward, but only for a short distance.

I can see where this would lead to a "nose up" jam. What I don't understand is how the round can end up completely in front of the extractor. It's almost like it's bouncing up out of the magazine before the slide starts forward. Woud a weak spring do this? (Mine are new from Wolff.) Or does this sound more like a magazine lip problem?

Is the extractor supposed to hold the round against the breech face? I haven't measured it, but I'll bet there's at least .020" between the cartridge base and breech face when the rim is pushed out to the hook.

 

[Old Fuff]

It could be either, that's why you need to check the lips on the questionable magazines. A weak spring, and or spread lips can cause the cartridge to release without the rim coming under the extractor, after which the cartridge will be able to jump up in front of the extractor. I suspect that all of this is part, if not all of the reason your re-springed 7-round Colt magazines worked while others didn't.

Edited to add: No, the extractor is not supposed to hold the rim against the breechface. If it did the case couldn't twist while being ejected.

 

[riverdog]

. . .Yesterday I shot 84 rounds through the factory colt 7-rounders (new springs) and Mec-Gar 8 rounders (new factory replacements) without a hitch and then had 5 jams in the next 3 magazines. All of the jams yesterday were with Mec-Gar magazines. . .

The problem is with 8 round Mec-Gar magazines!!! Compare the feed-lips to your Colt mags. Swap springs and followers from a Colt mags into Mec-gar mags. See what happens. My solution was to go to 7 round mags in my 1991A1. YMMV

 

[brickboy240]

One call to Wilson Combat in Arkansas and a couple of their 47D magazines and your troubles are gone.

Been there...will run nothing but Wilson magazines in my 1911s!

- Brickboy240

 

[riverdog]

It was 8 round Wilson 47D's that were the problem with my 1991A1. Wilson's 7 round kit was the fix.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

One call to Wilson Combat in Arkansas and a couple of their 47D magazines and your troubles are gone.

Been there...will run nothing but Wilson magazines in my 1911s!

- Brickboy240

Don't do it, Tooner...Don't do it. Might as well talk trash 'bout their trucks, wives, or bird dogs as about their W-R 47Ds...

 

[riverdog]

Another fix was

from ammoman.com
USGI mags are much cheaper than Wilson Combat and they run just fine.

 

[Old Fuff]

Tuner:

In the distance, I hear the voices chanting:

"Maaaaaaagaaaaaaaaziiiiine...Maaaaaaaaagaaaaaaaaziiiiiiiiine...

Could it be the ghostly song of John Moses?

Naw ... he decided to let folks learn the hard way ...

By the way, I got one of them clips that has a loop attached to the base. Do that do anything to make it shoot better???

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Tuner:



Naw ... he decided to let folks learn the hard way ...

By the way, I got one of them clips that has a loop attached to the base. Do that do anything to make it shoot better???

Trouble is...They just ain't learnin'! They keep askin' the same question figgerin' they'll get the answer they wanna hear sooner or later.

Naw...All that loop'll do is keep ya from droppin' the mag when ya reload on horseback.

 

[ajax]

Sport as i just noticed that you wrote what you are shooting in your first line please excuse my dumb ass question from earlier. Ill have my eyes checked in the morning. Take tuners advice he seems to know what he's talking about ,and god knows mags have caused many a man frustration.Good luck.

 

[19112XS]

By the way, I got one of them clips that has a loop attached to the base. Do that do anything to make it shoot better???

Oh NOOOO Fuff!!! You've got one of them?? Quick, sent it to me for proper exorcism before it contaminates the other mags in your collection.

 

[Old Fuff]

Thanks for the warning ...

Because of you I'm safe. I went out and ground it off. Got some grind marks on the bottom of the base, but I can fix that with some cold blue ...

 

[StrikeEagle]

The suggestion is being made here that 7-round mags be used... with the flat, dimpled follower and a good stiff spring.

Get these from Wolff... you won't do better.

http://www.gunsprings.com/SemiAuto/ColtNF.html#magazine

No, I don't have any financial interest in Wolff. Wish I did!

StrikeEagle

 

[BluesBear]

USGI mags are much cheaper than Wilson Combat and they run just fine.

Except that those magazine in the photo ARE NOT USGI magazines. They are Chinese produced forgeries.

Sorry Riverdog, but I hope you didn't pay too much for them.

The magazines ain't real.
The packaging ain't real. It ain't even close.
The CAGE numbers on the base indicate that they are supposed to be Mason-Rust produced magazines. Mason-Rust had changed their corporate name and that CAGE number had been "retired" by the time those magazines were produced.

I have seen a lot of them for sale. I have tested a few of them.
Some of them work. Some of them don't
None of them last for very long.
Get a real GI mag and compare. You'll clearly be able to see the difference.

If you own a 1911 pattern pistol that will only function reliably with one brand of in spec magazine, you own a defective pistol.​

 

[Sport45]

The problem is with 8 round Mec-Gar magazines!!! Compare the feed-lips to your Colt mags. Swap springs and followers from a Colt mags into Mec-gar mags. See what happens. My solution was to go to 7 round mags in my 1991A1. YMMV

The springs and followers aren't interchangable between the Mec-Gar and Colt magazines. (Well, maybe if I kept the follower and spring together. I haven't tried that.) When I called Mec-Gar about replacement springs, they just said to send the old magazines back and they'd ship new ones.

I'll put a couple of pictures below to show the difference between the two magazines.