1st outing with M&P9...issues?

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I've never found an M&P that sighted in to use a 6 o'clock hold. They're Combat Sighted like #3 which is POA/POI. Google it to see for yourself. Shoot with #2 and you will continue to be low.
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Not any of the M&Ps I own or have shot. #2 is the correct sight picture for them. #3 would be high. You align the sights, not the dots. I would suspect he is anticipating the recoil and/or looking over the sights.
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I have experience with more than a dozen M&P pistols from the Shield, compact, full size, PRO and C.O.R.E. I've always used #3 for best results. I'm not arguing against the folks who say the gun is set up for #2, but just that #3 is what works for me.

On one M&P 9mm Pro, the fiber optic rod was broken and missing from the front sight. This, of course, allows one to see THROUGH the front sight. At ten yards, with a 1" square which you can see through that open front sight hole, my shots landed right on the square when concentrating on that "perfect trigger press".
 
I've got to say since you aren't grouping it is how you're shooting. Revolvers you shot double or single action? That M&P trigger will get better with use.
 
if you notice your shots are hittin low=heavy trigger.
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Not necessarily, I don't think. To be perfectly honest, I don't know enough about this to make a definitive statement, but I have shot some heavy triggers and done just fine. My groups are larger for sure, but they aren't any lower. Maybe I am just not wrapping my head around this, but I can't see where low shots would always equal a heavy trigger.
 
powder said:
Had 5 M&Ps. Sold em.

Looks like you need to adjust sights or use 12 oclock hold.
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The sights don't adjust that much, nor should they have to. He just needs to learn how to properly shoot the gun.

And in my experience a heavy trigger usually causes the shooter to pull left or right more often than it causes a shooter to push the shot downwards. M&Ps don't have a heavy trigger, so I wouldn't blame it.... To be honest, I think way too many people are way too quick to blame the gun (not just in this situation).
 
Have you tried dry firing to see if your gun is jumping as you squeeze the trigger? I just had a thread on this. I hadn't shot in about 4 months I was grouping nicely but all low and left. At the range I was 100% sure it was the new sights I put on the gun. I got home and did some dry firing and sure enough I was pulling left and down. Dry fire and see what it shows you. M&P triggers aren't great but do get better with use.
 
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Breakingcontract, I agree the dry firing can really help. I traded for a used Smith and Wesson SW40VE at a gun show, which has a very heavy trigger. I noticed that the rear sight had been move all the way to the right. After shooting and finding my groups went way right. I soon found out that previous owner, probably right handed and was pulling his shots way left and probably low, a severe flinch. I did a lot of dry firing and found that I could move the sight back to the left to the middle and have good groups nearer to the bull. I have become familiar to the hard pull and decided not to do the spring modification and concentrate on the hard pull. many owners of these guns say they ease up and become smoother over time. I really like this gun's reliability, ease of take down and fit to my hand and remember every gun shoots different, everyone's eyes see things differently too. I'm left eye dominant and right handed which caused difficulties as a youngster learning to shoot rifles.
I hope this helps.
Rod
 
I use sight picture #2, but my M&P hits low with 115gr ammo. Shooting 147gr its much closer (actually shoots just a tad high). You might try a heavier bullet weight and see if it makes a difference.
 
I have 4 M&P's took me a little while to get use to them put APEX FSS trigger in all them and that helped me a bunch
 
I guess I'd have to ask, how does a two hand hold prevent you from jerking the trigger? Or exhibiting any of the other bad habits?

I would say the addition of a second hand would not eliminate the effects of bad habits on a one hand shot, but it might reduce their effect.

Or, is the entire premise of the chart incorrect?
 
Jack19 said:
I guess I'd have to ask, how does a two hand hold prevent you from jerking the trigger? Or exhibiting any of the other bad habits?

I would say the addition of a second hand would not eliminate the effects of bad habits on a one hand shot, but it might reduce their effect.

Or, is the entire premise of the chart incorrect?
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It doesn't prevent you from continuing whatever bad techniques you've developed, however it changes the results on the target due to its masking effects of differing force vectors...much as a 1911's short trigger press will mask a host of bad techniques.

An example is that a good two handed grip, moots the effect of too much or too little finger on trigger
 
So, if the bad behaviors are continued, how are they, then, not apparent on the target? Flinching doesn't stop because of a grip.

A two hand grip, obviously, does not correct poor shooting technique (or there would be a lot more good shooters at both my local and private range, lol.)

I would suggest that poor shooting skills continue no matter how many hands hold the weapon and that the validity of the chart, if indeed it is accurate for a one hand hold, cannot be discounted simply because a second hand is added to the grip.

The bad technique continues.

So, the question becomes, to what extent does a second hand, if it does at all, effect the impact of rounds on the target?
 
Jack, a 2 handed grip doesn't cure any of the problems, but it can mask them. It can also cause two people to miss a target in different directions even if they are making the same mistake simply because they are gripping the gun with different pressures in each hand.

And yes, the chart is invalid when a shooter is using a two handed grip. But if 9mmepiphany's explanation didn't make that clear enough, there is nothing more that I can add. The amount that it affects a bullet's impact on a target depends on the shooter.
 
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Jack19 said:
So, if the bad behaviors are continued, how are they, then, not apparent on the target?
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They are, just not in the dispersion illustrated in that chart

Flinching doesn't stop because of a grip.

A two hand grip, obviously, does not correct poor shooting technique (or there would be a lot more good shooters at both my local and private range, lol.)
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That chart isn't meant to cure bad technique, it is meant to help pinpoint which part of your technique is flawed.

When the shooter is using two hands, the POI will differ from that of when they are using one hand. I'm surprised this wouldn't be obvious.

So, the question becomes, to what extent does a second hand, if it does at all, effect the impact of rounds on the target?
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So you believe that the impact and muzzle rise of a handgun held in two hands will be the same as when held in one?

If that is truly your belief, I'm at a loss as to how to explain how the chart is flawed. Folks cling to the chart, because it gives them a rubric to cling onto when they don't have enough understand of how different pressure vectors affect POI and don't understand how the hands vary these vectors.

The reason that a chart doesn't exist for two handed shooting is because folks can't agree on a standard grip to use when shooting. Not only can they not agree on how pressure should be applied, they can't even agree how the thumbs should interact with each other...each of the different placement affect how the gun interacts with the remainder rest of their hands

The only two handed hold to which that chart is applicable is the Tea Cup or Cup-n-Saucer gripping technique...because it is the one in which the support hand offers the least support/influence/help
 
My M&P has a definite preference for 147 grain over 115 and 124--but not at 10 yards. They all shoot the same that close.

The big knock on the full-size M&P 9 is terrible accuracy due to poor lock-up, but that usually doesn't surface until you get out to 25 yards or farther (and it doesn't effect every M&P or even most M&P 9s, either).

I'd say its either anticipating recoil or the trigger with its weird crunch at the end. I've blown many a shot because of that.
 
So you believe that the impact and muzzle rise of a handgun held in two hands will be the same as when held in one?

If that is truly your belief, I'm at a loss as to how to explain how the chart is flawed. Folks cling to the chart, because it gives them a rubric to cling onto when they don't have enough understand of how different pressure vectors affect POI and don't understand how the hands vary these vectors.
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No, didn't say that. Just trying to understand your point.

What I'm hearing you say, however, is that even when not understanding the dynamics of a two hand grip, the chart must be completely invalid when used that way.

With that I do disagree.
 
The big knock on the full-size M&P 9 is terrible accuracy due to poor lock-up, but that usually doesn't surface until you get out to 25 yards or farther
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Man, the first time out with my M&P40C I thought I'd got a real lemon and was cussin' myself for putting on the Trijicon RMR without having fired it first. But the next few times out its shooting tightened right up. I don't attribute any of it to me as my M&P40 has been accurate from day one and I regularly shoot smaller and as powerful pistols like the Kahr PM40.

So it may not be all the shooter, if his M&P was like mine it may shoot up to his abilities after a few more outings. After some "shiny" spots developed on the barrel lug/cam and its engagement surface in the frame, and on top of the barrel mine has been a great shooter.
 
MK11 said:
The big knock on the full-size M&P 9 is terrible accuracy due to poor lock-up, but that usually doesn't surface until you get out to 25 yards or farther (and it doesn't effect every M&P or even most M&P 9s, either).
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Not so much the lock up as the unlocking...it was unlocking too soon in the cycle. Apex Tactical did some development work with custom barrels and slowing down when it unlocked. The Bar-Sto barrels have been promised soon

Early M&P9 barrels were not as well fitted as the M&P40 ones...this has improved over time.
 
Jack19 said:
What I'm hearing you say, however, is that even when not understanding the dynamics of a two hand grip, the chart must be completely invalid when used that way.
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I would think that if you don't understand the dynamics of a two handed grip, the chart would be useless anyway.

Understanding the dynamics of the two handed grip is the basis of my stating that the chart is near useless...nothing is completely invalid.

You can test this yourself. Take a good two handed Isosceles grip on your gun and fire 3 shots using too much finger on the trigger; then fire 3 shots using just the tip of your finger. The placement of the shots on your resulting target will not mirror the respective segments of the chart.

Remember that this isn't a correction chart, but a diagnostic chart. If the bullet strikes are different from the marked segments when using the called out techniques...it has, by definition, been invalidated
 
Is it a shield or a 9c? if it's a shield the chances are the front sight is off. Mine was. Where my 9c was right on the money. The Shield was Visiblly off, and needed to be really hit with a drift punch, if you find that it's the gun and not you, have a gunsmith do it, as you can break the sight right off. I did not, but realised that I was hitting it way too hard and it still did not move.
I first put tape on both the punch and the sight, so as not to mark either. If you don't have experience doing this let someone who does handle it.
 
gym said:
have a gunsmith do it, as you can break the sight right off. I did not, but realised that I was hitting it way too hard and it still did not move.

If you don't have experience doing this let someone who does handle it.
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I can't second this advice enough. M&P front sights are notoriously tight. When I replaced the sight sight on my M&P, the rear sight was pretty easy but the front just didn't want to move at all.

I had a gunsmith do it for me and I related that it really takes a good bench vice, a fitted punch, a good hammer and some gusto to remove their front sights.

If you just need some windage adjustment, I'd highly recommend shifting the rear sight
 
I would think that if you don't understand the dynamics of a two handed grip, the chart would be useless anyway.
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Oh, I do. I actually understand the physics, and the ergonomics. I'm just interested in the reasoning sans the math.

And if nothing is completely invalid, then.......:D

It's just got me thinking that there should be some quantifiable data somewhere...hmm.....maybe that's why they call it an art.

Thanks for the chat, good food for thought.
 
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