2-Fold Inert/Dummy Ammo Question

[tyeo098]

1) I have a few people who know I reload and have offered me money in exchange for some dummy rounds I could make for them.

I understand that a 1-off sale would probably not be of any concern, but it raised the question, if they told friends of friend and so-on, would making inert ammunition be the same as manufacturing ammunition in the sense of:

§922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(1) for any person—

(B)[...] to engage in the business of importing or manufacturing ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship, transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign commerce;

2) Ship inert ammunition internationally? (Some of my friends are in England, where they think having an inert pc of 308 on their desk would be the coolest thing in the world.)

Basically, is inert/dummy ammo treated the same as, or differently than live ammo in the eyes of the law?

 

[MErl]

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

 

[tyeo098]

If the worry of selling "cases" and whatnot was of concern 1/2 of the shooting public would be in jail.....

Its not selling cases, its MAKING them. You cannot make brass cases and sell them as a business without an FFL. Remington, Winchester, Starline, etc all have FFL's to make cases.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

2) Ship inert ammunition internationally? (Some of my friends are in England, where they think having an inert pc of 308 on their desk would be the coolest thing in the world.)

The shipping would probably be as much as just having them buy it locally:
http://www.dandbmilitaria.com/7.62-Rifle-Round.html

 

[Frank Ettin]

I didn't read the BS attachment from above since I didn't find the first half relevant but I have made and sold 12 ga dummy ammo for several years and I'm not sending this from "The BIG House"..... HUGE difference between making and selling live ammo and making and selling inert shells. If the worry of selling "cases" and whatnot was of concern 1/2 of the shooting public would be in jail.....

Well I guess you haven't been caught yet. Maybe your post will generate some ATF interest in your activities.

If so, the statute, 18 USC 921(a)(17), you call BS will, as the definition of "ammunition" for the purposes of federal law, be a key element of your indictment.

As to other people violating the law, people do violate laws with some frequency. However, that is irrelevant. Part of our purpose here is to help people understand what the the laws are, how they apply and how to avoid violating them. Violating laws can have some undesirable consequences; and no doubt there are many folks now in prison who didn't expect to get caught.

So be advised: It is not acceptable here to promote, condone or encourage the violation of laws. So if you persist in that sort of nonsense, your post will be deleted, you might receive an infraction or your posting privileges could be suspended.

...Ship inert ammunition internationally?...

Based on research I've done in the past, the import and export of ammunition and components, including cartridge cases and bullets, are subject to the restrictions of ITAR.

 

[tyeo098]

Didn't mean to cause a ruckus...

So... inert = live in the eyes of the law?

Based on research I've done in the past, the import and export of ammunition and components, including cartridge cases and bullets, are subject to the restrictions of ITAR.

As I suspected. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Didn't mean to cause a ruckus...

So... inert = live in the eyes of the law?

I think at least one key phrase in the legal definition is:

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

Drill a small hole in the side of the case and you have made it obvious that the inert round was DESIGNED for display and not for use in any firearm. It is my opinion, which is worth less than what you are paying for internet access, that would make the definition of ammunition non-applicable to your inert round designed for display purposes.

As far as the export of the bullet or brass, I have no idea. I think the hole drilled in the case would keep it from being classified as a component of ammunition - but again, only my opinion.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Drill a small hole in the side of the case and you have made it obvious that the inert round was DESIGNED for display and not for use in any firearm. It is my opinion, which is worth less than what you are paying for internet access, that would make the definition of ammunition non-applicable to your inert round designed for display purposes.

As far as the export of the bullet or brass, I have no idea. I think the hole drilled in the case would keep it from being classified as a component of ammunition - but again, only my opinion.

And I have no idea either, nor do I plan to do any research on this.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Just IMHO, but here in the US, with the possible exception of some seriously Socialist States, inert ammunition (i.e., hole in the case) shouldn't be a problem. Live primers would be a no-no, too, of course. Empty, fired cases, might be an issue in some places.

Overall, I'm sure you're not at any risk except for the zero-thinking zero-tolerance folks at your favorite school & such.

(Around here, while you should be able to bring loaded magazines into a "Criminal Protection Zone", without the gun, odds are the folks on the metal detectors won't understand that. It's best to presume that, anyway. I had to walk a magazine back to the car on a very icy and cold day last Winter. Aargh....)

NOW, when you start shipping stuff to Europe, particularly England, the nanny state folks may balk at anything that once saw a gun.... IMHO, the guy who gets the thing may be in a lot more trouble than you would be, but who knows? Japan, which all but forbids private ownership of firearms, sells a lot of "replica" guns, but I don't know how they'd react to "real" ammunition, even if it'd been neutered.

Regards,

 

[DaveP (UK)]

here in the UK a quick web search found a UK company still selling deactivated ammo. In this case the term seems to mean genuine fired cases with used primer still in place and a new head fitted. Certainly, at least until recently you could find belts made of linked machine gun rounds on sale. I cant remember if these had primers in place but they all had a hole about 1mm drilled near the rim. If this sort of stuff is on sale near you I cant imagine getting into trouble for manufacturing a case as long as it is similarly disabled before it leave your hands.
The same search turned up this link that you might find relevant:
http://www.dummybullet.com/inert_bullets.html
As ever, with legal issues, the devil is in the detail and you need to research local laws and by laws as carefully as possible.
There are one or two other points to consider. International shipping raises the possibility of the package going through a scanner. You need to take steps to avert a panic response, IMO.
Furthermore, I wouldn't be pleased if someone sent me inert ammo in a plain brown envelope precisely because I am a registered firearms owner. If it was picked up in transit I could have to do some fast talking...

I thought the OP had an interesting and valid question. I hope this helps a little.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

for what its worth.....

ATF treats unloaded grenade hulls with an unthreaded hole bores through the bottom as intended as curios or ornaments, not as destructive devices or ammunition.

http://www.atf.gov/content/what-sta...s-artillery-shell-casings-and-similar-devices

What is the status of unloaded or dummy grenades, artillery shell casings, and similar devices?

Unloaded or dummy grenades, artillery shell casings, and similar devices, which are cut or drilled in an ATF approved manner so that they cannot be used as ammunition components for destructive devices, are not considered NFA weapons.

 

[tyeo098]

Just IMHO, but here in the US, with the possible exception of some seriously Socialist States, inert ammunition (i.e., hole in the case) shouldn't be a problem. Live primers would be a no-no, too, of course. Empty, fired cases, might be an issue in some places.

Possession, yes, but I'm not talking about possession. I'm talking about manufacturing.

Basically my endgoal plan was to offer inert rounds for sale on certain cryptocurrency pages, places where people offer to 'write poems' 'paint pictures' or other nonsense for small values of cryptocurrency. Some people sell stickers, buttons, etc. I figure selling a tangible item that I actually have a skill in, reloading, would be a neat addition to the marketplace.

My understanding would be mfg loaded rounds would run afoul of the law quoted above, so I started researching about mfg inert rounds. In the process of discussing it, a guy from England chimed in asking if I could ship across the pond. Hence the thread

I guess I'll try the hole-drilling thing (1/8"?) and I'll include a note in any shipped package, along with on the thread, that the rounds are inert, for display purposes only.
See if the BAT-men come and pick me up. If you guys dont hear from me for a few days come rescue me from gitmo!

 

[BSA1]

I know this seems to be a major no-no but a simple letter to the BATF asking for their definition of inert ammunition and opinion on your business plan for them IN WRITING would be much cheaper than hiring a lawyer to defend you later one.

 

[Field Tester]

Wait, so would this technically encompass the selling of brass since brass is a component?
Frank, your thoughts?

 

[MedWheeler]

The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

Taking this literally, each component of a complete round (primer, powder, projectile, and the case holding them all together) is, in itself, defined as a unit of "ammunition." If it's something a convicted felon is prohibited from possessing, it's ammunition (in this context.)

On that, while drilling a hole in the case could be construed as removing its "design for use in any firearm", the seated bullet is still so designed.

I'd be more looking at the definition of "engaging in the business of". It has been maintained that the occasional sale of a firearm, or the receipt of payment for doing work on one, is not considered as such. Generally, if it's not your livelihood, or a supplement to your livelihood, it may be within the parameters of the law.

But, it does look like sending it outside the US may not be.