.223 or .308?

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Combat-wombat

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I have made a similar post, but now I am asking just one question. I am new to rifle shooting, in fact I have never shot one. I do want to get into it, and am trying to convince my parents to buy a rifle. Now, If we do buy a rifle, a question comes up: .223 or .308? I mainly want to benchrest shoot (not hunt), so I am concerned with accuracy. I want something I can compete with. I do not intend to compete anytime soon, but in case I ever want to, I'll have a capable gun. So, with that in mind, which caliber is better? (the reason I have narrowed it down to .223 or .308 is because I want a more standardized caliber)
 
Please, for the love of God, don't start another caliber vs. caliber thread.:eek: ;)

nsf003
 
1st) Get a 22LR rifle

2nd) Get a 223 rifle

3rd) Get the 308 rifle

Don't think getting a 22LR rifle is a wuss thing. You can learn a lot about shooting off benches with the little pea shooter.:D You'll also learn a lot about windage and bullet drop.
 
I much prefer .308 over .223, but for competition and AR-15 is probably the best way to go.
 
Soda pop has it down. If only that's what I would have done...

nsf003
 
I agree with the previous post concerning a 22 rimfire as a first rifle. You can shoot matches later, learn the fundimentals now, all with the same rifle. A good 22 rimfire is the most versatile rifle you can have. And the most fun IMHO. Good for plinking, pests, matches, and cheap ammo too.

I always recommend starting with a bolt rifle. Since you are learning the basics, now is the time to learn to run a bolt gun.

The little CZ 452 American is generally available for less than $400. Start with the open sights. Learn to use them. Then, replace the open blade with an aperture from http://cz452.com/ Learn to use it. Then mount a good quality optic. Learn to use it. Then move to a centerfire rifle.

I'd prefer 308 as it's more versatile. But, if you only intend to shoot paper, the 223 is probably a better choice. You have a myriad of choices in bolt rifles - again, CZ makes a dandy - and of course there's the AR15 platform. The sky is the limit there.

BTW, my .22 LR rimfire CZ 452 American easily shoots sub .25 groups at 25 yards. Bear in mind that I am not a precision shooting kind of guy, more of a field shot here. A good benchrest guy with match ammo could reduce this easily.

If you go with the CZ, I also recommend Brookie's trigger kit. http://cz452.com/ The best $9.00 I've ever spent. It took mine from ~4.5# and a lot of creep to ~2.5 and no creep. It comes with springs to bring it down even more, but I use mine in the field and ~2.5# is about as low as I want to go. If you are using it strictly off the bench, you can safely half that with ease.

I'd also recommend Jeff Cooper's "Art of the Rifle." It's not geared toward target shooting, but rather gives a great overview of field use and why the rifle is "the Queen of the battlefield." The drills outlined in the text are essentially an abbreviated syllabus from the 270 General Rifle class. You could easly modify the ranges on these and shoot them with your 22. This would provide a good adjunct to your bench practice.

Good luck, and welcome.
 
By the way, forget having any fun semi-autos in .223. :banghead: Gray Davis :barf: Democrats :barf: Senator Perata :barf:
 
Start with a .22 for your first rifle. The CZ 452 Lux is an excellent choice. I own one and the sights are superb. In centerfire, I like .308, but that's just me. Since you're in Cali and pretty much going to have to use a bolt action for what you're looking to do, might as well get the .308 and be done with it. To be honest with you, when I started shooting, I went this way: Crosman pellet rifle, European pellet rifle, .22 rifle, shotgun, then centerfire. Hey, if you really want to shoot .223, when you turn 18, join the army, LOL!:D I bet by then, we'll be running half the world and you can choose a lot of exotic duty stations. Anyway, that was where I first shot a .223 (ok, well, a 5.56mm) rifle. I had been shooting Mausers and Lee Enfields before that and thought, "Is this all ya got?!"
 
For God's sake; LISTEN to the advice!!!:banghead: PLEASE!!!

Otherwise:

I've posted this elsewhere, but I have but one question-
Should I get a BMW M5, or a Porsche Turbo Carrera. I'm thinking about getting into driving; actually I've never driven before. Trying to talk the folks into getting a car, so which one - if we get one - whould we buy?
I may never drive competitively; but if I do someday, which would be better? Thanks in advance for your help.:what: ;)

(See what I mean???) Best of Luck. (.22's are DAMN fun; and real cheap!!)
 
Ian- As much as I'd love an AR-15, my state has decided that normal sheeple can't be trusted with them.

Look, I know I should start off with a .22 and everything, but we are kinda tight on money (not really, but my parents aren't really into the gun thing, and unless I convince them somehow, they'd much rather spend the money on other things). Anyway, I can't just keep on buying rifles for every stage of experience in shooting. Keeping that in mind what should I do? I actually have shot a couple of .22 rifles, I just wasn't counting those. All I'm saying is that financial issues prohibit me from buying several rifles.

I will take the .22 into consideration, though. Is a Marlin good? they're cheap.
 
Combat- if you want a cometition-grade rifle, you're going to have to pay for it, to the point where the cost of a stock .22 rifle is very small. You also need to consider ammunition costs. I think if you really get into rifle shooting, you'll soon disabuse yourself of the notion that one gun will do.

Go for the .22, and if you have money left over, save and invest it for your later purchases. :)
 
How about a compromise in this .22 LR vs centerfire debate: .22 WMR

Much better ballistics and longer range than .22 LR, but still cheaper to shoot and with less recoil than .223 and .308

I've got one of these and have been very happy with the accuracy:

http://www.hr1871.com/firearms/index.php?cat=4&subcat=21

And the best part is they go for $120 (before you buy the scope). Also, because it is single shot, it teachs the shooter to make every shot count. I think it would be a great first rilfe.

Of course there are other much more fancy .22 WMRs out there, the Rugers for example:

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=6202&return=Y

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=2901&return=Y

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=7019&return=Y

The Savage one doesn't look too bad either:

http://www.savagearms.com/rimfire/magnum_series/93g.htm

But if you've got your heart set on getting a centerfire, go for a Winchester model 70 or a Ruger M77:

http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=535&type_id=031&cat=001C

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=7887&return=Y

And I know it wasn't on your caliber list, but have you thought about a .30-30? The ammo is just as common as .223 or .308, even more common in some places. And lever actions are just plain cool

http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=534&type_id=087&cat=003C

Anyway, now that I've posted a zillion links, I'd like to conclude by saying I agree that if possible, you should get a rimfire first. And if .22 LR isn't something you're interested in, go for .22 WMR, it's a much better round...
 
Please start off with a .22LR. My suggestion is a Ruger 10/22 semiauto. You can add all sorts of accuracy, cool or evil stuff to it as you go along.

There's lots of people who post here wanting a first rifle which will suit every purpose possible and which will hit out to 1000 yards...

Just wait until you know what you really want. Your parents will probably take you more seriously as well.

I'll use another example: say you want to start skiing, you don't go and buy the longest pair of slalom skis. You start with shortys until you know what you are doing before you move on to longer or more flexible skis. Yeah, those 220cm skis are cool, but you should probably start with 150-165cms.
 
c-w, if you haven't already done so, browse the various manufacturers' websites. Look at the prices of the various offerings.

Have you worked out any sort of budget? First, the rifle; then the scope, and of course such things as scope mounts and possibly a sling.

Part of the whole deal for folks starting out--and particularly on the parents' billfold--is that a .22 bolt-action rifle does the least damage during one's stupidity-stage that we all have gone through. You get the basics down pat, and it's more than just the shooting: It includes safety and responsibility.

Ya always gotta remember you have to prove yourself worthy of the trust for possessing and handling deadly force. We all have done that.

I don't mean to be harsh, but a beginner's opinion just doesn't carry much weight. That's something else that most of us had to endure...

:), Art
 
Wombat, what do you mean by "compete?" and "benchrest?"

I am a benchrest competitor - It'll cost you around $1,500 for the rifle, about $300 for the scope, and another coupla thousand for all the peripheral crapola.

Bare bones.

I'd suggest that you, being young and all, check out highpower competition - silhouette shooting, all that... You can do it with a CMP Garand or an accurized AR-15... Then when you get old and don't wanna crawl around on the ground, take up benchrest.

If I haven't dissuaded you, look at www.benchrest.com, and check out Shooter's Corner under complete rifles. Give them a call, ask for Bob or Craig, and tell 'em Bogie sent you.
 
"what about .17 HMR?"

I'd recomend .22 WMR over .17 HMR, mainly because the ammo is cheaper, and finding a place that has .17 HMR in stock at all can be hard...

Besides, .17 HMR is just a necked-down .22 WMR. I know everyone seems to think it's this "new" "High-tech" rimfire round, but it is simply a variant of the .22 WMR...
 
I have owned both - the .308 was my first rifle in an actual bottle neck case. Owned a 44 rifle and a 444 prior to that as well as a slew of 22 rifles. The .308 was a Rem 700 VS and shot quite accurately with just about everything I ever fired through it. My .223 I now own is a Rem 700 VLS and it is extremely accurate firing certain bullets as well. But it does not seem to be as accurate with a variety of loads as my .308 was. Of course I have not performed a great deal of load devleopment and some others may find the opposite to be true with thier .308/.223.

Niether is a benchrest gun. If you want to get into sanctioned benchrest you will need a benchrest rifle. Unless , there are competitons in your area where factory rifles have their own category to compete against each other.

Since you are new to rifle shooting I would get a 22lr where you will learn good marksmanship with low cost shooting. For the price of an average box of 20 rounds of .308 you can buy 500 or more, rounds or 22lr. I would not get a 22 mag or 17 HMR as a first rifle.
 
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