.25-06 brass from .30-06 H&R 1871 Single Shot

[4895]

I picked up a H&R 1871 single shot in .25-06 Rem for a backup whitetail rifle. I couldn't find brass but have a couple hundred .30-06 that I had lying around and haven't had any luck with this combo. I cleaned the brass quite well and used a RCBS FL .25-06 die along with Imperial Sizing Wax inside the neck, outside the neck, and on the case body. Resizing went along fine with no problems. I bought some Hornady 75 grain HP and 117 BTSP bullets to fire-form with 75 grain and load/test 117 grain. Anyway, with the 26 inch barrel I started blasting away while recording on a chronograph. Using 75 grain HP's and H414 my velocity figures averaged 220 fps more than book suggested. I then shot a dozen 117 grain BTSP using Re-22 with, again, velocity above the book expectations with three cases developing separation cracks. I did work the load in ladder style.

The other day I reloaded the cases that were now fire-formed and noticed quite a bit of force needed to pull the expander ball back through the neck after sizing. I loaded about 20 rounds with 75 grain HP and H4350 and about 12 rounds with 117 grain BTSP with IMR7828. I reached about half of the ladder test and had a split neck, another separation starting, and horrible accuracy. I mean they shot about a 4 inch group at 50 yards, some didn't hit the paper (Where did they go?).

I finally broke down and bought 2 boxes of Remington 100 grain factory ammo to see if the bullet weight is better for the twist, and to have some brass later on. I haven't been able to sight the rifle in reliably at 25 yards much less 300 yards.

I am thinking the neck thickness may be a problem, but I don't know. Perhaps I have a headspace issue. Am I resizing too much? FL die is set to touch the shell holder plus 1/8 turn. I would like to get the .25 cal pilot for my neck turning setup but don't know if that is the problem. Anyone have any advice or suggestions. The brass I have been using is R-P, Win, and 6 Fed. I am going to give up on this .30-06 to .25-06 conversion if my results don't improve. I am not looking for lightening speed or absolute accuracy. For this rifle my goal is to lauch a 117 or 120 grain bullet at or above 3000 fps and stay within MOA.

Thanks.

 

[Bexar]

I've done the 30-06 to 25-06 neck down. You're experiencing two things it sounds like to me...work hardened brass and the id of the neck of the now formed 25-06 needs to be reamed out. What do your primers look like after firing. Case head separation is usually, but not always, an indication of long headspace not overpressure. Have a competent gunsmith check your headspace. If you're a pathetic example of measurement psychosis like I am you can get an RCBS precision, caliber specific, micrometer. I type too much.

Keep us posted.

 

[JimKirk]

I have made 25/06 cases by sizing down 30/06 without any problems ... never had to turn or ream the necks .... I used LC '68 for quite a few .... some of those cases have over 20 firings and they are still going ...

I would look at the H&R as the source of your problem ... they can be troublesome to get to shoot sometimes...

I would size until I could barely close the action ... a lite crush fit ...

 

[Bexar]

LC68-72 brass is what I used also. I concur with the rifle getting checked out before any further attempts to shoot it. You gave better advice than mine. I get caught up too much in the technical of problem fixing and not the practical of problem fixing.

 

[rcmodel]

Thick, work-hardened brass is making bullet seating difficult.

You need to anneal the case cases before, or after reforming to .25-06 cal.

You probably need to neck-ream or turn the thickened brass to allow bullet clearance for a clean release in the chamber.

I know I do with my Douglas barrel Mauser 25-06.


Try fitting a bullet back in a fired case before resizing and see if it is a loose slip 'fall in' fit.

If not, case necks will have to be reamed to reach safe pressure limits with normal loads.

If the necks are too thick to expand and release the bullet in the chamber?
Pressure & velocity can sky-rocket!!

rc

 

[41 Mag]

Never loaded for an H&R before, but have loaded for half a dozen or so 25-06's. I never had issues with the standard parent '06 case being sized down to 25. I have had issues with them splitting after a couple of loads which annealing solved right quick.

Like mentioned I would check the cases after firing to see what the diameter is, as well as have the chamber looked at.

Also you might take a dozen or so factory '06 cases and anneal the necks before sizing them down and give them a try as well. Most every 25 I have worked with has been a 1-10 twist and would easily handle all of the bullets in this caliber, even the long all copper Barnes. I will admit the Berger 115 gave me a fit, but I eventually got it dialed in as well.

The powders I have had the best luck with have been IMR-4831 and IMR-4350 for 100gr weights, and H-4350, RL-19 and 22 for anything heavier. I usually always used Win-WLR primers, and either Win or Rem cases, but like the others have thrown in a ton of the LC cases as well and those DO sometimes have a thicker mouth, but still worked just fine.

One other thing I have read and heard about the H&R rifles, is that they are temperamental as to where they are rested. Move them one way or the other by a couple of inches on the rest, and groups can go from good to bad in a hurry. Not saying this is the case every time, but I have read and heard enough times that it might also add to the issue. I know with a friends .243 that was the case for sure. It would drive tacks with the fore end rested right at the tip on the bag, but move the bag back to mid way of the wood and everything went to pot. Just an idea.

 

[Tolkachi Robotnik]

Have seen this brass alteration.

I have shot both 30-06 and .270 brass in my 25-06. It does do a lot of 'work' on the cases, and they harden. The necks can get too thick and this can mess up the release of bullets. The .270 cases are much longer and need trimmed bunches, and tend to be even thicker in the necks than 30-06 altered similarly.

It is a lot of work and the 25-06 brass is not all that rare. I have a little bit of this altered brass around but retire it very quickly compared to the proper sized brass, even from a good bolt action rifle. It cracks well before the normal head stamp brass ever does. Turning the necks down can help but again it is time and work. As stated above annealing would help a lot.

You should always inspect and clean the chamber if you notice loss of accuracy, this should be easy in a break action rifle. There might be something there.

 

[4895]

Thanks for the replies. I found out this weekend that my scope is to blame for the accuracy problems. I now have 40 pieces of .25-06 factory brass to use. I don't think I'm going to continue using .30-06 brass. I expect to only get 2 shots out of the brass and that isn't for me. I will load the factory brass and replace the scope. Perhaps I will have better luck. I would like some reliable ammo for hunting, not some finicky target fodder. Thanks again.

 

[Bexar]

The scope! :banghead: There must be a thousand guys including me that should have thought of that. Next time don't ask such a technical question...we enjoy technical questions! Just say, "My gun don't shoot so good...what's up." Correct answer in five replies I bet!

 

[4895]

Well, I have had an opportunity to load some 'factory' .25-06 brass with 117 Hornady BTSP bullets, Winchester LR primers, and Reloader 22. According to Hornady, the max charge is 56.1 grains of powder for 3100 fps. Well, with another ladder test I reached a peak of 3336 fps with 56 grains with hard extraction and flattened primers. That is nearly identical to the result from my reformed .30-06 cases. I originally started at 48 grains, 50, 52, 54, and 56 grains to be prudent. I lowered the charge to 54 grains and still have hard extraction. I pulled about 26 bullets and dropped it further to 51.0 grains and I was shooting a MOA group. The primers are still flat but extraction is smooth. It seems that Hornady really pushes the envelope with their load data regarding .25-06.
Last night I took my 40 pieces of .25-06 brass and about 50 pieces of Winchester .30-06 brass and annealed it. It is my first attempt at annealing and I hope everything went well. I have them in the tumbler now and will attempt to resize them today and go shooting this afternoon to gather chrony data and just to make noise. With some luck I should be able to ring the steel rams today. Thank you.

P.S. The scope was changing point of impact with a change in magnification. The target paper looked like buckshot until I switched to a Burris 3-9x40.

 

[Bexar]

Keep us posted...I eat this stuff up.

 

[4895]

Went to the range today and on my third shot had a case head separation. Notice the "line" or "groove" in the shoulder of the "whole" case. There is also a line above the head of the case. This brass is Remington brass from a box of factory 100 grain PSP ammo that was shot two weeks ago. Before the first firing, there were no visible flaws in the brass. It was then annealed by me last night, reloaded this morning, then shot today. What to do now? I took the rifle to a gunsmith and he said he is 4 weeks behind. Any thoughts? I would like to remove the piece of brass and check ?headspace? but I'm not a gunsmith.


P.S. I loaded a mid-range load from Hornady manual. 52.0 grains of Reloader 22 with Winchester LR primer. I am using a Hornady 117 gr BTSP bullet with OAL per manual instructions, 3.160" (I think). Book shows 48.0 minimum and 56.0 maximum.

 

[Bexar]

There has got to be a headspace problem either in the chamber or the resized and formed brass. Do you have access to an RCBS Precision micrometer for the 25-06? Case head separation w/o other indicators is generally not an indicator of over pressure. The only thing I can think of and I'm pulling this up from a different mechanical incident not rifle related. Are you headspacing correct on the rifle but because of loose fitting parts the receiver "lockup" changes under the pressure of firing. You can get a broken shell extractor on e-bay for about $15.00 or try to run a chamber brush into the chamber and twist and pull. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[4895]

Do you have access to an RCBS Precision micrometer for the 25-06?

I most assuredly do not. I will try with a brush to get the brass out of the chamber. Thanks for the tip. I don't know how hard it is to check headspace but I would imagine it is as easy as loading a dummy shell that is either GO or NO-GO, or a FIELD gauge that determines acceptability. If I can get the piece out without damaging the rifle, I will call H&R tomorrow and see what they say about returning the rifle or if I should have it repaired locally.

BTW, my first shot, the cold-bore fouling shot, was 2.75" high from center. My second shot was 1 1/2" right and 1" low. I don't know where the third shot went. I will have to put this backup rifle away and concentrate on my primary. I only have a month and a half to get prepared for whitetail season. For a working man with a family that is only about 3 days or so of shooting. I was hoping to have this rifle dialed in already in order to load 100 rounds or so and shoot uphill, downhill, crosswind, standing, sitting, kneeling, etc. A 500 yard shot across a canyon with 10 mph wind isn't hard to come by out here.

 

[Bexar]

Something is loose in the receiver lock up. Anything else would show up with pressure signs. I'm not a gunsmith so go with the pros. My best opinion is the receiver to barrel lock-up is changing under pressure. But again...go pro gunsmith.

 

[fguffey]

4895, you passed up a good opportunity to eliminate the difference in length between the case and chamber, you said you had some 30/06 cases lying around, I to have cases lying around-neatly stacked. When forming cases, necking up and or down I use new and or once fired cases. We do not know if your problem was with the rifle and or the cases. I eliminate case travel by forming cases that fit.

F. Guffey

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

i'd neck size for that single shot until the cases don't fit in the chamber anymore. then i'd bump the shoulder back just enough to allow them to fit.

 

[4895]

i'd neck size for that single shot until the cases don't fit in the chamber anymore

Problem is that with factory Remington 100 grain PSP ammo, I am getting an incipient case head separation crack/line just above the head where this one let go. I removed the primers and using a flashlight and modified dental pick was able to cull a few cases out from the batch after FIRST firing with factory ammo. I wasn't thinking as clearly as I should have been and this one got through the mix. I am sure others are next in line. Point is, I do not believe this is an error from the ammunition. If the rifle won't shoot factory ammo worth a hoot (8" buckshot pattern) and leaves this barely visible crack, no amount of neck sizing will fix a bad chamber. I have shot only 1 reasonable group with this rifle out of 100 rounds. If H&R doesn't repair the firearm, I might fill the barrel with concrete, chain it to the truck, and drag it down a dirt road to get some 'patina' on it ...so'is I can wall-hang it.

 

[4895]

4895, you passed up a good opportunity to eliminate the difference in length between the case and chamber

Whatever do you mean? I do have some .30-06 cases that were fired in that chamber that have not been resized or anything.

I managed to get the broken piece out with a .30 caliber brush. I pushed the brush in and pulled everything out.

I cleaned the rifling and chamber and wonder why my once fired brass (.30-06 case) goes right into the chamber and the action locks up without any force.


Edit:

After looking at my .30-06 brass:

It was previously fired in this chamber. Fire-formed with 75 grain HP bullet and H414
It was full length resized (touching shellholder plus 1/8 turn)
It was then trimmed to spec 2.484"
It now measures 2.503"
It has grown .019" after being fire-formed, trimmed to spec, then reloaded with 117 grain BTSP and 45 grains H-4350 @ 2997 AVG velocity. Start load is 44.0 grains per Hodgdon

I did start at 44.0 grains of H4350 and chronographed velocity of 2902 AVG. I just happened to measure the former case.

I did stop shooting this batch at 46.0 grains as I had a case neck split and almost all cases have an incipient case head separation line developing. Velocity with this load is 2994 AVG.

 

[4895]

I received my rifle yesterday from H&R, serviced by Remington Arms. According to the paperwork enclosed the gunsmith found a similar problem. The gunsmith replaced the lockup mechanism, refitted the barrel to the frame, adjusted the headspace, then reamed and polished the chamber, followed by a test firing. Great news right.. NOT! I went to the range after swabbing the barrel with Hoppe's #9 and fired only one round with new Hornady brass and found that they left a ridge in the chamber large enough to cause the following mark in the center of the brass.

Time to send it back again?


P.S. There is also a score near the shoulder of the brass from machine marks. This is getting old with them. How could they test fire and pass it on like that? Did they legalize marijuana in NY state or something?

This load was from the recent Nosler manual with 100 grain Ballistic Tips at 3.200", new Hornady brass, Winchester LR primers, 51.0 grains of H-4350, no crimp. I believe start load is 49.5 and max is 53.5.

http://www.nosler.com/25-06-remington

 

[Tolkachi Robotnik]

Can you feel the raised ring area?

I would guess it is a tool mark from the repair. If large enough it will cause brass failure at the groove, but it may take a few times fired. If you can see it and cannot really feel it the tool mark is there but the rifle may shoot well anyway. A micrometer to measure how much of a bump would be useful even if to report the problem again to the manufacturer.

If there is no corresponding groove on the inside and the raised area is not palpable, The rifle may shoot much better than previously even if there is little obvious quality to the chamber via your eye. If the raised area is very large at all it will hurt extraction even if the case does not separate. It may only be an indication of where the cutting of the chamber was done and the limit to the polishing actions taken. I can understand the frustration you must feel over all this.

Previously the rifle had a head space issue and it was bad enough to prevent accurate results. If I could not feel the raised area on the brass I would not be afraid of shooting a five shot group with attention paid to each piece of brass that came out as I went. If the raised area is .002 high I would send the rifle back again with a description of what it has done.

 

[4895]

I can detect the problem area with my fingernail. Looking into the chamber it appears to be a ridge in the chamber probably from where the reamer was started or stopped. I think I can polish it out but I shouldn't have to. I don't know if any of you have experience with chamber polishing but I normally use oiled crocus cloth and a 20,000 rpm die grinder. I won't make up my mind until Monday when I can call H&R to see if they will install a new barrel or blow me off to a second rate gunsmith.

 

[4895]

Finally got my rifle back from Remington Arms/H&R repair service. Inspected the NEW barrel they installed. Have to say that I am very pleased with their work THIS time. Took the rifle out to sight in, chrony, and check groups. At 25 yards I often split the first hole with the second bullet. I shot about 30 rounds altogether and worked up some Nosler 100 grain ballistic tips up to a safe, pressure sign free velocity of over 3500 fps. I will have to continue to work loads but those shot extremely well and the 75 grain Hornady hollow points shot quite well with a mid-range load at 3500 fps as well. I am very happy now that they have replaced the faulty barrel and will recommend them in the future. Thanks.

 

[788Ham]

So, you still going hunting? Hope that rifle does you right this go round, you've been beat hard enough now, go hunting and show us some pictures!

 

[4895]

Hunt starts this Friday. I have it zeroed for 200 yards and hope to take a shot. Thanks.