2x20 ACOG - good, bad, sm-th else?

[Oleg Volk]

I have a 1.5x16 mini ACOG right now. It has great optics but I greatly dislike the dot reticle. A friend offered to buy it from me.

I am considering ordering a 2x20 mini ACOG with cross-hair reticle to replace the 1.5x. Does anyone have enough experience with it to say it it is a good or a bad choice on a defense rifle which would most likely be used up close but may have to work up to 150m (my longest line of sight from the house)? I have a shorter, unscoped carbine. The ACOG would be replacing an EOTech 552 which I do not really like (it is the older model without raised switches, requires manual brightness adjustments, like most red dot sights). Red dot allows co-witnessed irons, which the scope will not allow...

Looking for suggestions in general and for info on the 2x20 model in particular.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Are you looking for something in the same budget? What is your ability to see/acquire targets with the naked eye? Also will this mount on a carry handle or flattop?

If your vision is good and you feel you can see and acquire targets well with the unaided eye, you might check out the new Eotech 553 and see how that works for you. It is definitely going to be quicker.

If you are like me and the extra magnification comes in handy even at relatively close distances, then a compact ACOG is tough to beat if you are on a budget. If you don't have a budget, there are a number of high dollar solutions that seek to combine a crosshair ACOG with a red dot (Elcan DR, TA31DOC) or even higher dollar illuminated variables like the Schmidt&Bender 1-4x, Nightforce 1-4x. There are also cheaper variables that do the job pretty well (Leupold 1.5-5x with SPR reticle, Leupold 1-4x shotgun scope) but may lack a feature here or there.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Flattop 20", maybe a 16" flattop later on.

Declining eyesight, lack of target recognition without magnification. I am willing to spend more, if necessary, to get one good scope.

 

[another okie]

I don't know how they are for durability, but a guy at a 3 gun match had 1 x 4 Meostar red dot that I liked a lot for optical quality and versatility. It's Czech, I think, and at 1 power had a large red dot for close up and at 4 power showed black crosshairs. If the battery was dead the crosshairs still worked at all powers. I have not seen one for sale and I think they cost about five hundred dollars or more.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I hear you on the eyesight... I really think variables are the way to go if you have trained to where you instinctively acquire a good cheek weld.

The Leupold 1.5-5x gives you a lot of options and has an illuminated reticle. The downside is the illumination is not really bright enough for daytime use and is geared more towards lowlight. If you are like me and like that bright red contrast point that automatically dims to black, then this reticle may prove to fine or too dim. Last I looked this was in the $700 range.

A Leupold shotgun scope is actually pretty effective on ARs. It has 1-4x variable non-illuminated reticle with thick posts on the outside and crosshairs in the center. You can get it as cheap as $199; but no illumination so it doesn't work in low light without a flashlight.

In the $1200-1500 range, you have the two new contenders for the SOPMOD Day-Only Sight. The TA31DOC and the Elcan Specter DR. The TA31DOC features the TA01NSN crosshair reticle; but in red and backed with fiber optic daytime illumination. In addition, it has a Dr. Optic mounted above the scope objective so that you have a red dot with all of its advantages. The Dr. Optic also has a light sensor and adjusts brightness automatically much like the current BAC ACOGs; but is battery dependent. The ACOG is tough like any ACOG; but the Dr. Optic is a bit more exposed to getting smacked around.

The Elcan DR has a lever that quickly flips the scope from 1x to 4x. It uses battery power to illuminate the center with either a dot (1x) or an illuminated TA01NSN crosshair (4x). Good glass and built in ARMS throwlever mount; but uses the Elcan external adjustment system which has had trouble holding zero in the past during hard use. However, this version of that system represents the fifth generation of it and this system is in use with the military, so while it isn't as bombproof as an ACOG, it isn't fragile either.

At the top of the heap you have the Nightforce 1-4x (if you can find one) and the Schmidt & Bender Short Dot 1-4x. Both are top quality glass with daylight illuminated reticles and multiple cams available. The Nightforce is slightly cheaper at $1800 but virtually impossible to find. The Short Dot runs $2000 but can actually be found. The downside is these are both heavier and more expensive than the Day-Only Sight contenders.

I've gotten hands on with the Leupold 1.5-5x, Leupold 1-4x, Nightforce 1-4x and a home brew version of the TA31DOC (Docter Optic mounted on TA01NSN). I've played with numerous Schmidt & Benders but not the Short Dot. Haven't seen the Elcan DR.

I've been trying to find an optic myself to replace my TA11 on my project gun*. It gives me great service out to long ranges; but it lacks speed up close and I can't get the precision the rifle is capable of at longer distances. The ones I've listed above are on my short list, though I probably wouldn't look at the Leupold 1-4x unless budget was the primary consideration. Right now, I will probably keep the TA11 since it does most of what I need it to do and I can't get a substantial improvement on it within my budget.

*The project is to design one rifle that can do box drills while moving in 4.5 sec or less at 15yds and then go out to first round A-zone hits at 500yds under time constraints with no additional or different equipment.

 

[NMshooter]

This is a question I suspect a lot of folks have been trying to answer for years.

The 2x ACOG might be a good compromise if the eye relief is more than an inch. The 3x compact ACOG I have is a bit much up close, so I ended up going with an Aimpoint.

The biggest problem I had with the scout scope concept was the small objective lens on the 2x scope I had. In bright daylight it was fast, and helped me to see what I was shooting at, but at night it was worthless. The size of the objective makes a big difference in the dark, which is why I lean more towards conventional scopes than the small objective scopes. I need to get another low powered scope with a decent objective lens and try that out.

Oleg, have you tried a collapsible stock on your 20" AR? I have one in that configuration, and it really makes a difference in manuverability. An A2 profile barrel also helps (lightweight).

Bartholomew, is the illuminated reticle on the Leupold reliable? I have wondered if it was worth the extra money.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Basically you need 8mm of objective for every power of magnification. This will insure your eye gets the maximum amount of light it can theoretically use - and that assumes you have young eyes in perfect condition dilated to the maximum possible in total darkness.

If you have an objective of that size and aren't getting enough light, then it is just poor quality glass/coatings.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

It seems to me that these are the main issues:

1] Fast deployment (no on/off switches)
2] Magnification for deteriorating eyesight.
3] Use from close range to 150y.

#2 and #3 are at odds with each other, as magnified optics are terrible for close-range work. To me, the BAC is a worthless gimmick. I can get used to it, but not because the ACOG has any special characteristics that facilitate BAC (other than short-eye relief). It is you who trains your brain to scan with one eye, then to switch focus (attention) to the eye in the optic. BS. Most people who are honest (not Trijicon fanboys) all say it is a tough optic to use close up. In combat, it is great because engagement distances are far enough to where it isn't a problem. Door kickers are a different story.

There's no real solution to having magnification for distance and easy use for close range combat. It is like the holy grail of carbine optics right now. There are 3 work arounds. 1] low magnification like the mini-ACOGs and just wing it for CQC 2] Variables like the S&B, but you must adjust 3] Magnifiers for the non-magnified reddots, which require mount/dismount.


SB style optics solve the problem of no magnification to magnification. But, they add weight, are real expensive, and I'm not so certain their illumination is that great in the daytime. (I don't know). I'm assuming you want a day/night illuminated reticle for quick use.

Magnifiers for existing reddots are just too much clutter, expense and just not practical. Even with QD levers, who's going to be throwing off a magnifier in the middle of the battle? Seconds count.

The variables as well as the reddots, as well as magnifiers all fail in the quick deployment dept. You don't want an optic that needs adjustments in the heat of a battle. You want something ready-to-go.

The only thing holding you back from a reddot is 1] time to deploy 2] lack of magnification.

Time to deploy can be solved by buying the new generation of Aimpoint. With an advertised 50,000 hrs of battery life on a brightness setting of 7 out of 10, you can pretty much just leave it on all the time. 50,000 hrs is something like 5 years of continuous battery life. You could change out the battery yearly just to be on the safe side (or if advertising is exaggerated).

The Aimpoint will not help you in the magnification dept at all. Unless you get a 2x model, but that won't be better than a 2x ACOG as the ACOG has zero battery issues or switches.

If you can do without magnification out to 150y, an Aimpoint is a good choice as it will do well from 0 yards to 200 yards with the 4moa dot. But I don't know how good/bad your eyesight is. If a human torso is visable at 75 yards, but blurrs out to the point where you can't see it at 150y, the Aimpoint might be a bad choice for a rifle you are setting up to reach out to your maximum line of sight range. If you are leaning magnification, then I assume it is a NEED, rather than a comfort.

The Mini-ACOG doesn't work for you right now, but you have to figure out if it is a magnification issue, or if the dot reticle is just too large. Are you looking for more magnification, or a more precise reticle? Or both? IIRC, the dot reticle on the mini-ACOGs is something like 7moa?? It's large. Still useful for 150yards, but not as good as a smaller dot or a cross hair.


I think the best way to go is either the ACOG 2x (if you need more magnification than the 1.5) with either the crosshair reticle or the triangle. With the triangle, you can zero the top point of the triangle at 150y or whatever your max range is, then for close-up work, anything on the triangle is a hit anyway...The circle is bad because there's no point to work with. The triangle is much better as it gives you a big fat spot for quick, but you can use the point for precision.

The other choice (if you can do without magnification) is the Aimpoint being left on all the time. Quick into action, and will work better at short range than any magnified optic. But if your eyes are going, then you give up the longer shots with the Aimpoint.


I'd determine how well I can see and place a reticle on a human torso at 150y. If I can't, I'd back track till I find the maximum comfortable range that I can do that with my eyesight. Then I'd multiply that by the magnification to get to my 150y destination. IE, if you can't see a person past 100yards, but you can still make them out and hit them at 75, then a 2x is ideal for 150y. If you can see them at 50y but no further, and want to hit to 150y, you'll need a 3x.

You only want to add magnification as you need it. No more, no less. For every bit of magnification higher you go, you're giving up short range effectiveness, speed and ease. It is a tough balance.

You could do what some people do to their ACOG's. They add a red dot like a Docter Optic. You can then go higher to 4x for longer range, but still have a dot for up-close use. Others use irons. Determine how close someone must be before you feel uncomfortable using the magnified optic. Then at that distance, see how well you can "point and shoot" or use quick irons in a hurry. If it is a close distance, all of this might be moot, and a simple reticle change for you might be all that's needed.

 

[NMshooter]

Thank you Bartholomew, I did not know that.

The scope was a Springfield Armory 2x scout scope.

Guess I should have heeded my own advice and stuck to Leupold.

The LaRue rail is free floating, hmmm... May have to try a LER scope on it.

2x seems to be the upper limit on what can be made to work at indoor distances, at least for me. Unfortunately we all differ sufficiently that what works for my eyes may not work for other eyes.

And the Aimpoint is still fastest close up.

The small eyepiece lens coupled with the short (about 1") eye relief on my 3x compact ACOG makes it a real pain close up, personally I would have to try out the 2x ACOG before committing to it. 3" to 5" of eye relief is much easier to use, and that scout scope was even better.

As I get the money I need to do some experimenting, anything that works on one rifle with rails can be switched to any other, making it worth my while if I find something useful...

 

[another okie]

The full name of the scope I mentioned is the "Meostar R1 1-4x22 - RD"

RD stands for Red Dot. You can see it at meopta.cz under sport optics. It lists dealers but I don't see suggested prices anywhere.

 

[355sigfan]

Personally I don't like the reduced field of view, paralax problems and eye relief issues with Acogs. I have a TA31 that I am about to sell. The Eotech is my faviorate optic. You may consider the Trijicon Accurpoin 1.25 x4. This is a good compromise.
Pat

 

[Rob96]

I have gone the shotgun route. The red dots and holographs, didn't work for me becasue of astigmatism. Could not afford the ACOG. Also wanted something that gave me options. I have always had good performance out of Bushnell scopes, even with abuse. I went with the Trophy 1.75x-4x shotgun scope. It is nice and clear. I love the circle x reticle. Now if I can only get time in my schedule to go and shoot the thing. This is a busy month.

 

[TxRedneck]

Accupoint TR21

I removed an Eotech from my AR and replaced it with a Trijicon Accupoint TR21R which is the 1.25x4 with the red triangle. Shoot it with both eyes open on the short range scenarios and target accuisition is good. Along with some of the other posters I too suffer from eyesight degredation. The 4X is enough help for the longer ranges. The TR21 has an excellent focus adjustment and I am able to shoot it without other correction. Another selling point for me on the Trijicon was the no battery feature for illumination and the adjustable brightness. The only negative was that I had to buy a rail extention to get the scope far enough forward. This may or may not be the case for you, but most people I know that have this optic, move them forward.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I haven't been able to get much time with the Accupoint and haven't looked at it since I wanted a BDC or cam for shooting out to 600yds; but another feature they have that I really like is the sliding plastic cover for the fiber optic. This lets you dim the reticle if it is a little too bright for your liking.

 

[GunnySkox]

http://www.gunblast.com/Trijicon_ACOG-Docter.htm


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