30 30win 165gr bootlit and IMR 4227 suggestions?

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larry7293

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Loaded 165gr RNFP hi tek cast bullets sized to 309 using 16.5 grns of IMR 4227 in my 30 30 win Henry with really poor results. Could not hit a 3 inch target at 25 yards with any kind of consistency. Same way at 50 and 75 yards. Any ideas on how to improve accuracy using the 4227 powder?
Lyman cast book says to use 16.5 to 22grns of powder.
Would increasing the powder charge help?
 
I've had the same problem with .309" sized cast & coated bullets in my Henry. It's too fast for the size & being unchecked that you're using with I4227. If you want to tighten up the grouping you need to reduce the powder charge to somewhere around 12-13gr of powder. Increasing it won't help at all.

That or up the diameter of the bullets and/or add a gas check.
 
I would say look at your bullet diameter, first. You may have to slug the bore, or just do what I did.... and order a small lot of .310" bullets and give them a try.

I have a pre-war Savage 99 in .30-30. Using LaserCast .309" cast bullets, over IMR4198, I got shotgun patterns... it was horrible. So I got a small lot of .310" cast bullets from Montana, and bam! the patterns disappeared, shrinking down to 4" at 100yds. It was crazy.

I have also used IMR4227 with the same bullets... with fair results. I was running 18grn IMR4227 under a 170grn cast gas-checked bullet; this combo gave me 1775fps out of a 22" barrel.

One thing... what Phil says is correct... adding more velocity may or may not help, per se. The bullet MUST fit the bore properly, or it's never going to work, no matter what. There is one issue that may benefit from a larger charge... and that's bullet base obturation. I'm not familiar with powder coated bullets, so I don't know if something like IMR4227 is enough to obturate the base.
 
If your sizing them yourself with the Lee die you have two choices. Try the .311 swaging die, which most likely will work good or order the noe modular sizing system. I have mine in the mail as the 94 is supposed to run .310 the best. Noe was out of the sizing bodies for a while is why I'm just now getting mine. The individual sizers are 11 dollars.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/sho...tools/sizing_kits/30-caliber-sizers-standard/
 
I've had the same problem with .309" sized cast & coated bullets in my Henry. It's too fast for the size & being unchecked that you're using with I4227. If you want to tighten up the grouping you need to reduce the powder charge to somewhere around 12-13gr of powder. Increasing it won't help at all.

That or up the diameter of the bullets and/or add a gas check.
Loaded some 309 bootlits with 13 grains of IMR4227 and a few with 14 grains. Will see how they work. Will try a few also with 12 grains. thanks
 
I size my cast bullets , Lee 170 gr. FP. to .309" but I use a softish alloy , 50/50 mix COWW/soft lead , I use a gas check and Red Dot - 7.0 to 9.0 grains ...
...or Unique - 7.0 to 10.0 grains .
10 grains Unique with the 165 gr. cast bullet may work better .
Rifle is a Winchester model 94 in 30-30 .

The faster powders may bump the bullets up to fill the bore ...
but on the other hand your bullets may be too hard to bump up .

After 50+ years casting and shooting lead bullets in rifles I've found :
Use a gas check when possible ...just makes life so much easier ...
Don't use hard bullets ...
Hard undersisized un gas checked bullets shoot terrible and leave lead in bore ...
Getting everything just right tries your soul ... but when everything comes together ...
... it's oh so sweet to shoot small groups with cast bullets!

Don't give up !
Gary
 
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I've had the same problem with .309" sized cast & coated bullets in my Henry. It's too fast for the size & being unchecked that you're using with I4227. If you want to tighten up the grouping you need to reduce the powder charge to somewhere around 12-13gr of powder. Increasing it won't help at all.

That or up the diameter of the bullets and/or add a gas check.
Didn't you have a thread going on this a while ago?
 
Scheese, I completly forgot about shooting those 165's with Unique. Well, I'll find out again nex week in the desert. Sucks getting old.
Yes , Shooting will ... Tell the Tale and if I knew getting old sucked rocks so badly I never would have signed up for it ... all the good parts have stopped working .
Gary
 
I did. If you want to comb over some really good advice @larry7293 you can check out my old thread from this spring as well.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/30-30-and-hitek-coated.904799/[/QUOTE
Bearded Phil I read your previous post. I see you ended up sending your 30 30win back to Henry. What if anything did they say was wrong with the gun?
Also saw where you installed the Skinner peep sight. Did you have to replace your front sight also?
 
"Bearded Phil I read your previous post. I see you ended up sending your 30 30win back to Henry. What if anything did they say was wrong with the gun?
Also saw where you installed the Skinner peep sight. Did you have to replace your front sight also?"

@larry7293

When I sent back my 30-30 to Henry they actually didn't call or check in they just replaced the barrel. I was having some issues with jacketed with mine too, wasn't just cast & coated rounds. I bought mine second hand in "like new" condition. Which for the most part it was except for a dirty bore and the crown felt a little strange. Whether the guy that had it before actually did something to it or not I'll never know but the barrel that Henry replaced it with has a crown that feels the way it should. No sharp edge where the bore transitions to the front end of the barrel. It shoots a lot better with the same jacketed rounds that were giving me trouble before, but I haven't shot any cast with it since it came back from warranty. The issues that I was having with .309" sized unchecked cast rounds wouldn't have been caused by the crown of the barrel being messed up (if it actually was). That was a matter of sizing.

I plan to get casting myself soon so I'm going to use some cerrosafe and take a casting of the bore & possibly the chamber/throat to see what dimensions I get. I've had varying results with the soft lead slug method (use a swaged pure lead muzzleloader round if you do). I get the feeling I'll find that a .310 or even .311 sized round will work best but since I'm going to cast myself soon I haven't bought any commercial to try them out. I'm also going to be gas checking my 30-30 rounds. I got a NOE 311-171-RF-I3, 4 cavity aluminum and gas check model mould to use.

As to the Skinner sights, when I put one on my Henry's I always get a new front sight because I don't like peeps with a bead front sight. It's worked out well with my 45-70 & 357 with Skinners 1/2" x .625" tall patridge blade front sights. I got the same for my 30-30 and I've found it may be a bit too tall for the breadth of shooting I'll do with the 30-30.

Right now I've been shooting Hornady 170gr FP Interlocks with max 22.2gr of I4198 and I have to crank my peep all the way down as low as it will go to be on POA at 50yrds. I never shoot closer than 50yrd for range plinking but if I ever switched to another powder that's slower and gave more velocity (22.2gr I4198 gives me about 1800FPS here in AZ in the summer) then I'll have to trim that front sight down.

With the cast rounds I shot (158gr & 165gr nominal, .309" no gas check) I had it turned up 2, maybe 3 full turns from where my peep is set at now for the jacketed rounds. That was with I4198 at max 14.0gr for around 1310FPS.

With I4227 I tested from 14.4gr to 16.0gr in .4gr increments and quickly found that even 14.4gr was still too fast for the undersized bullets. Those chronographed at around 1460 FPS and the grouping was bad. The more powder charges went up from there the worse the groups got.
 
Thanks for the information. I am also thinking that gas checks may be the answer to getting better groups. Lymans cast book has IMR4227 being the preferred powder for cast 170 grn. bullets, that is why I started with that powder.
 
Thanks for the information. I am also thinking that gas checks may be the answer to getting better groups. Lymans cast book has IMR4227 being the preferred powder for cast 170 grn. bullets, that is why I started with that powder.

One other key thing to note in the Lyman Cast 4th edition is that all the projectiles they list are all gas checked.
 
Thanks for the information. I am also thinking that gas checks may be the answer to getting better groups. Lymans cast book has IMR4227 being the preferred powder for cast 170 grn. bullets, that is why I started with that powder.

One of the most consistent loads I ever worked up for my .348WCF was with IMR4227 vs my standard of IMR4198. I had single digit SD's. In a rifle barrel, IMR4227 burns very complete, I believe contributing to the good SD. I also show it was as accurate as the same bullet with IMR4198. IMR4198 gives me better velocity, however... and I need that because I'm shooting long distances.

Gas checks can solve some problems, but they are not the fix-all. If you are shooting an undersized for bore bullet with a gas check, you are likely to still get poor accuracy.
 
Thanks for the information. I am also thinking that gas checks may be the answer to getting better groups. Lymans cast book has IMR4227 being the preferred powder for cast 170 grn. bullets, that is why I started with that powder.
Noe does sell cast samples of the molds they sell. It's a great way to test drive before buying.
 
Thanks for the information. I am also thinking that gas checks may be the answer to getting better groups. Lymans cast book has IMR4227 being the preferred powder for cast 170 grn. bullets, that is why I started with that powder.
I really don't think it is so much the powder or the charge ... it should be just fine ... I'm thinking it's bullet size and/or hardness with the gas check being a distant third .
Just wanted to mention that in a 1970 something Winchester model 94 30-30 the inexpensive Lee C309-170-F, cast with 50-50 mix COWW - soft lead , sized .309" and lubed with Lithi-Bee lube shoots great ... I was going to "buy Better" but the 2 cavity Lee met all my shooting expectations so well ... I just never got aroundtuitt !

This kind of thing is what drives lead bullet shooters up the wall ...
Keep On Keeping On ... the answer is out there .
Gary
 
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Fingers crossed here. Loaded up 20 of those 165's from Missouri with 9.0gr Unique and 20 with 17.0gr IMR SR 4759. I'll report in a few days after going to the desert. These are .309".
We shall see.

Can you put a gas check on the MBC # 1 whitetail bullets -165grn ?
ht_1whitetail.jpg
 
Can you put a gas check on the MBC # 1 whitetail bullets -165grn ?
View attachment 1103432

Larry, Sageoutdoors make a plain based gas check (for bullets without a gas check shank)

https://www.sagesoutdoors.com/30-caliber-plain-base-aluminum-gas-checks/

I've never used them nor do I know anyone who has.

I have some Lee 170 gr FP that I have powder coated, added a Sage Gator Check and sized to .310"

I also have the same bullet, powder coated but un checked and un sized.

PFVvmb1.jpg

If you'd like to PM me your address is be more than happy to throw a dozen of each in a padded envelope for you to try.

The unsized (green) ones you can check and size yourself if you'd like as they measure from ~.312" up to around .315"
 
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