30 30win 165gr bootlit and IMR 4227 suggestions?

[larry7293]

PM sent. thanks.

 

[Y-T71]

Responded

 

[Bearded Phil]

Love the support around here. Good show, fellows.

 

[gwpercle]

The gas checks that are designed to fit on a un-heeled cast bullet are referred to as "Plain Base Gas Checks " ... gas checks for plain based bullets , they are thinner than regular checks and must be press fit into place by running the gas check and bullet base first through a bullet sizing die ...
the die presses the sides of the check into the softer lead bullet ... the harder the bullet , the harder to get the check pressed into place smoothly and without damage .
I don't know how to apply when powder coating ... I don't do that .
Gary

 

[AJC1]

The gas checks that are designed to fit on a un-heeled cast bullet are referred to as "Plain Base Gas Checks " ... gas checks for plain based bullets , they are thinner than regular checks and must be press fit into place by running the gas check and bullet base first through a bullet sizing die ...
the die presses the sides of the check into the softer lead bullet ... the harder the bullet , the harder to get the check pressed into place smoothly and without damage .
I don't know how to apply when powder coating ... I don't do that .
Gary

I apply gas checks before pc.

 

[Y-T71]

When doing my little research on gas checked bullets years ago I found it was roughly 50/50; those who PC before and those that PC after powder coating.

Doesn't seem like there's a wrong answer to the question.

Some folks needed that little bit of added material to get the checks to crimp on tightly.

I was in that camp. My checks are very solidly attached applying and sizing them after PCing

Depends on the size of the shank which depends on the individual mold, alloy, casting temp etc.

Side note:
I also briefly considered plain based checks on some commercial cast 175gr .40 cal bullets.

Got leading in a .40 S&W and thought about plain based checks but then I ended up boiling off the lube and powder coating.

Very shortly afterwards I got rid of my last .40S&W pistol and never got a chance to try them.

I had thought about giving them a go in my 1006 but, frankly, I have tons of jacketed bullets for that already so it's not high on my priorities.

Still, in the back of my mind I often wondered how those plain based checks would've worked especially since those bullets are bevel based and not flat.

Considerable evidence that they would have worked very well on the bevel base.

Probably never know

 

[gwpercle]

When doing my little research on gas checked bullets years ago I found it was roughly 50/50; those who PC before and those that PC after powder coating.

Doesn't seem like there's a wrong answer to the question.

Some folks needed that little bit of added material to get the checks to crimp on tightly.

I was in that camp. My checks are very solidly attached applying and sizing them after PCing

Depends on the size of the shank which depends on the individual mold, alloy, casting temp etc.

Side note:
I also briefly considered plain based checks on some commercial cast 175gr .40 cal bullets.

Got leading in a .40 S&W and thought about plain based checks but then I ended up boiling off the lube and powder coating.

Very shortly afterwards I got rid of my last .40S&W pistol and never got a chance to try them.

I had thought about giving them a go in my 1006 but, frankly, I have tons of jacketed bullets for that already so it's not high on my priorities.

Still, in the back of my mind I often wondered how those plain based checks would've worked especially since those bullets are bevel based and not flat.

Considerable evidence that they would have worked very well on the bevel base.

Probably never know

To me ... getting a plain base gas check on a plain based bullet and run through a sizer die to iron it on and not damage the check , tear or push edge out of shape was the tricky part ...
How you would do this with a powder coated bullet ... I don't know , my plain based gas checks fit tightly ...there was no room for a coating of powder .
I would say go the attach check while sizing and then powder coat . But there are always a dozen different ways to skin a gas check/powder coated cat .
Gary

 

[AJC1]

If your powder coating it's likely you don't need a gas check. I only do both because my mold uses them. For 30-30 the pressure is low enough coating may be enough. If a bullet is under size these bandaids are not a quality fix and money spent fixing bad bullets for your application would be better spent getting a better bullet. A cheap thing to try that may help is coating them again. That should give you a tighter fit.

 

[Y-T71]

...
How you would do this with a powder coated bullet ... ...there was no room for a coating of powder .
I would say go the attach check while sizing and then powder coat . But there are always a dozen different ways to skin a gas check/powder coated cat .
Gary

To be clear I never had the intention of plain base gas checking my powder coated bullets, I was only going to try them when they were uncoated.

If your powder coating it's likely you don't need a gas check. I only do both because my mold uses them. For 30-30 the pressure is low enough coating may be enough. If a bullet is under size these bandaids are not a quality fix and money spent fixing bad bullets for your application would be better spent getting a better bullet. A cheap thing to try that may help is coating them again. That should give you a tighter fit.

I agree with coating them again to add diameter.

Just remember, when you're adding material to your bullet (powder coating) you're adding it to all dimensions of the bullet, not just the bearing surface so, you may, in fact, run into a situation where the front of your bullet will jam into your rifling making chambering difficult and possibly affecting pressure unless you reduce your COL.

When I was learning about casting, I found the question of "is it possible to shoot a gas check design bullet without gas checks?" to be a long-standing and somewhat controversial one.

The consensus that I personally took away from that debate was; if the bullet was designed for a check then a check should be used.

I have done absolutely no experimentation in that regard so I won't even consider giving advice.

 

[AJC1]

To be clear I never had the intention of plain base gas checking my powder coated bullets, I was only going to try them when they were uncoated.



I agree with coating them again to add diameter.

Just remember, when you're adding material to your bullet (powder coating) you're adding it to all dimensions of the bullet, not just the bearing surface so, you may, in fact, run into a situation where the front of your bullet will jam into your rifling making chambering difficult and possibly affecting pressure unless you reduce your COL.

When I was learning about casting, I found the question of "is it possible to shoot a gas check design bullet without gas checks?" to be a long-standing and somewhat controversial one.

The consensus that I personally took away from that debate was; if the bullet was designed for a check then a check should be used.

I have done absolutely no experimentation in that regard so I won't even consider giving advice.

I really need to do that exact test. I'm running so many experiments at once bill Nye would be jealous. Maybe when I wrap up this game with red dot I'll give it a go.

 

[Y-T71]

I really need to do that exact test. I'm running so many experiments at once bill Nye would be jealous. Maybe when I wrap up this game with red dot I'll give it a go.

Good deal.
I've been thinking the exact same thing, I simply have waaay too much going on (lately, I've been spending more time at doctors than at home!)

Nothing trumps real world experience though.

I've been "threatening" to do a PC'd, cast bullet load work up in 7,62x39 with 2400.
I think that will be a good opportunity to test checked vs non-checked at the velocities I'm expecting to be working with.

I have a strong suspicion that keeping velocities/pressure down like you suggested earlier will be successful with non checked, PC'd loads.

 

[Charlie98]

The consensus that I personally took away from that debate was; if the bullet was designed for a check then a check should be used.

I have done absolutely no experimentation in that regard so I won't even consider giving advice.

I use a generic cast 170grn .309" bullet for both .308 and .30-30 (sorta, more on that later...) that is cast for GC's, but I don't use them.... so the bullet is sort of a boattail bullet. At reasonable velocities, it's not a problem... and I'm using faster IMR4198. I could see where trying to push them to higher velocity, using big charges of slower powder might get you into trouble.

That bullet shoots fine in my .308 Savage 99... it does NOT shoot well in either my old Marlin .30-30, nor my .30-30 Savage 99... because the diameter is too small. Would powder coating help there? It might... but the Real Solution is to go to a bigger .310" bullet, which I did. Granted, I got them from Montana Bullet, so they are very well made, and have gas checks... but I don't think the gas check has that much to do with it, given the velocity I'm running them at.

 

[Y-T71]

I use a generic cast 170grn .309" bullet for both .308 and .30-30 (sorta, more on that later...) that is cast for GC's, but I don't use them.... so the bullet is sort of a boattail bullet. At reasonable velocities, it's not a problem... and I'm using faster IMR4198. I could see where trying to push them to higher velocity, using big charges of slower powder might get you into trouble.

That bullet shoots fine in my .308 Savage 99... it does NOT shoot well in either my old Marlin .30-30, nor my .30-30 Savage 99... because the diameter is too small. Would powder coating help there? It might... but the Real Solution is to go to a bigger .310" bullet, which I did. Granted, I got them from Montana Bullet, so they are very well made, and have gas checks... but I don't think the gas check has that much to do with it, given the velocity I'm running them at.

Good to know you're having good experience using checked design with no checks.

Looking at it as a "boat tail" design seems like a reasonable conclusion, especially since you're keeping velocities 'reasonable' as you put it.

If you're Marlin has micro-groove rifling, then you may have a hard time finding a cast bullet that works well no matter what you try.

Micro-groove barrels are notorious for not liking cast bullets; not impossible just difficult.

Couldn't say what's going on with your Savage 99 .30-30 but I've heard it said over and over in the cast bullet world that "fit is king" so trying a different/larger diameter (ideally after slugging it to see what your working with) is exactly what I would do, either by buying a different/larger diameter bullets/mold or, since I powder coat, adding diameter that way.

Regardless, as AJC1 pointed out earlier putting a gas check on a less than ideal bullet still leaves you with a less than ideal bullet.

 

[AJC1]

I agree with coating them again to add diameter.

Just remember, when you're adding material to your bullet (powder coating) you're adding it to all dimensions of the bullet, not just the bearing surface so, you may, in fact, run into a situation where the front of your bullet will jam into your rifling making chambering difficult and possibly affecting pressure unless you reduce your COL.

I think that after coating again one would just treat it as a new to you bullet as all the previous issues would not exactly put you in a position to continue or further develop a load that was already failing. The rcbs casting manual discusses running cast into the lands and despite current aversion to it, I believe the reason people are against it would not give that result. Yet more testing that I haven't even begun yet.

 

[Charlie98]

Good to know you're having good experience using checked design with no checks.

Looking at it as a "boat tail" design seems like a reasonable conclusion, especially since you're keeping velocities 'reasonable' as you put it.

If you're Marlin has micro-groove rifling, then you may have a hard time finding a cast bullet that works well no matter what you try.

Micro-groove barrels are notorious for not liking cast bullets; not impossible just difficult.

Couldn't say what's going on with your Savage 99 .30-30 but I've heard it said over and over in the cast bullet world that "fit is king" so trying a different/larger diameter (ideally after slugging it to see what your working with) is exactly what I would do, either by buying a different/larger diameter bullets/mold or, since I powder coat, adding diameter that way.

Regardless, as AJC1 pointed out earlier putting a gas check on a less than ideal bullet still leaves you with a less than ideal bullet.

Actually, once I stepped up to the .310" cast for both the Marlin and Savage .30-30, everything behaved well. My 4' patterns from the Savage tightened up to about 4" at 100yds... and that is no exaggeration. I've considered going to a .311" bullet as a tester to see if that helps even more.

I've never had problems with cast in a Marlin, except for this one time... and circling back to, as you say... 'fit is king,' which I repeat ad nauseum, and has proven itself to me time after time.

Truthfully... I've never found the need to fiddle with powder cast. Besides having pretty bullets, I don't see any benefit given my purpose for my cast rifles. I shoot long-distance targets at reasonable velocities, expecting reasonable accuracy. I get this with a properly fitted bullet, with or without gas checks, and without powder coat, with very little fouling issues, using commercially cast bullets, and reasonable powders. I was always scared of cast in rifle, given hoary internet lore of fouling and accuracy problems... but that turned out to be, largely, internet drivel given my results.

 

[Charlie98]

The rcbs casting manual discusses running cast into the lands

I have to do that with my short-chambered Browning 71. At first, I was deathly afraid of it, mostly because of the experiences I had with overpressure using jacketed bullets. When I started shooting cast, I even trimmed a small lot of my precious .348 brass back .2" to get the driving band out of the rifling... but it was all for naught. Now I just ram them into the rifling, and everything is wonderful. Granted, I'm using less than a full charge of powder, but they leave the barrel at 2100fps, just a few hundred fps below factory, so they are gettin' along, little dogies... but I don't see any pressure issues. I worked up to that, of course.

 

[Y-T71]

I think that after coating again one would just treat it as a new to you bullet as all the previous issues would not exactly put you in a position to continue or further develop a load that was already failing. The rcbs casting manual discusses running cast into the lands and despite current aversion to it, I believe the reason people are against it would not give that result. Yet more testing that I haven't even begun yet.

Yes, I don't have the answers either.
I've only run into the problem of chambering in my pistol loads where I have had to reduce OAL (and corresponding reduction in charge weight)

Rifle loads are a different "animal" In that regard.
No experience myself but, I've read accuracy guys sometimes recommend seating a bullet out to touch the lands.

OP's issue would more likely be from chambering standpoint because, if I'm understanding his specific situation, he's using a lever action which lacks the mechanical advantage for chambering and extraction that, say a bolt action would have because of the camming surfaces inherent in that type of action.

 

[Y-T71]

Actually, once I stepped up to the .310" cast for both the Marlin and Savage .30-30, everything behaved well. My 4' patterns from the Savage tightened up to about 4" at 100yds... and that is no exaggeration. I've considered going to a .311" bullet as a tester to see if that helps even more.

I've never had problems with cast in a Marlin, except for this one time... and circling back to, as you say... 'fit is king,' which I repeat ad nauseum, and has proven itself to me time after time.

Truthfully... I've never found the need to fiddle with powder cast. Besides having pretty bullets, I don't see any benefit given my purpose for my cast rifles. I shoot long-distance targets at reasonable velocities, expecting reasonable accuracy. I get this with a properly fitted bullet, with or without gas checks, and without powder coat, with very little fouling issues, using commercially cast bullets, and reasonable powders. I was always scared of cast in rifle, given hoary internet lore of fouling and accuracy problems... but that turned out to be, largely, internet drivel given my results.

Good stuff!
Learning a lot.
Thanks.

 

[AJC1]

Yes, I don't have the answers either.
I've only run into the problem of chambering in my pistol loads where I have had to reduce OAL (and corresponding reduction in charge weight)

Rifle loads are a different "animal" In that regard.
No experience myself but, I've read accuracy guys sometimes recommend seating a bullet out to touch the lands.

OP's issue would more likely be from chambering standpoint because, if I'm understanding his specific situation, he's using a lever action which lacks the mechanical advantage for chambering and extraction that, say a bolt action would have because of the camming surfaces inherent in that type of action.

Again in a cast situation I don't believe the same forces are involved. The first concern is a bullet staying in the lands during extraction and the neck tension and crip should hold the lesser holding force of lead over the jacketed because the engraving forces of jacketed are much higher. This would be in contrast to the soft seating some people do with jacketed and very low neck tension. It may all be mute if you have a giraffe throat and can't even reach the lands like in most production guns. 30-30 has a long enough cartridge neck to do it, but if tube feeding is a goal touching is probably out unless using a round nose, which I intend to try. My reasoning for going down the rabithole is that lead doesn't have the structure to self align in the throat and just yields, unintentionally deforming the bullet. At least that's my current thoughts.

 

[KY DAN]

All my .308 calibers are feed .311 bullets and I get super accuracy.