.308 Battle Rifle Carbines

[Luchtaine]

Okay, I'm bored and thought getting some input on what everyone thought about the rifles offered in this area.

It Seesm DSA, and J.L.D are pretty highly recommended

I prefer the FAL or Hk-91 types though AK Galil Variants definatly wouldn't be written off.

I know I want one as soon as I can get one that is once I am out of California here in a few months.

I know I want a carbine, M1a (standard loaded) already filling the full size well longer than fullsize battle rifle niche.

I'm gonna put my price ceeiling cap at say $2,000 Unless you can convince me that a Pre-Ban Hk-91 is really worth it . I do have a predispostion toward the real thing but for what I've read the American companies are putting out good stuff too. I have nothing against American weapons except their love affair with the .223.

 

[Powderman]

Check out the AR-10 line from Armalite.

 

[dmftoy1]

I don't own any of them but have been looking . . . . .the one that I want to get is the M1A "Scout Squad" but I'm still saving.

 

[Luchtaine]

yeah the Armalite kinda slipped my mind, I have looked into them before a little bit thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I voted for the DSA SA58, but it's really not a completely fair question. There is no single "best" .308 carbine. It depends on your priorities. It also depends on whether or not you consider "value", i.e., what you get vs. what you pay. There are some great custom guns out there that would cost a fortune.

I happen to own a DSA SA58 Para Congo (folding stock, 16.25" barrel) and I love it. I also own a PTR-91 (full size, not carbine) and it's a great rifle, too, for about 1/3 the cost of the SA58. AK's have their place, as do M1A's and AR's. It all depends on what you like and what you want to do with it. So the only real answer is ...

get 'em all!

 

[Luchtaine]

"get em all" we are talking about .308 battle rifles here. But, yeah I am with you there I don't have 10k to spend on just the rifles sadly. I need atleast one pistol in the mix eventually (another topic for later)

I just went and looked at the Armalites, and saw "Forged upper reciever" which in my book is giving it the upper hand now.

I'm looking for a durable carbine that will last atleast as long as me. The thing that appealed to me about the FAL especially is it looks like its gonna last a long time. The ARs look a little more fragile but I haven't really got the experiance with ether to say. Thats why I am getting opinions. I do know forged steel is a plus though and I guess Armalite is makeing them over here? But so is DSA? not really sure but it could affect the price in the next few months with the new BATF barrel nonsense. Though a clever foreigner could make a "deer rifle" useing the same barrels and gas systems off the surp rifles atleast from a completely comensense logical point of view I am sure the law has something preventing such.

But yeah I want a short .308 to do the things the M1a is not proficent at. like being shorter. Battle rifle carbine, not a match shooting gun. I just added the socom for the hell of it, doubt I get another M1a a nother flavor would be nice.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

Sig AMT

 

[Luchtaine]

/\/\ I love ugly military rifles like that.

20 inch barrel though....

 

[Father Knows Best]

I do know forged steel is a plus though and I guess Armalite is makeing them over here? But so is DSA?

I wouldn't get too hung up on the forged/cast/stamped thing. It really makes very little difference. The likelihood that you will ever break or wear out any receiver is incredibly small. Get a rifle that suits you from a functional and aesthetic perspective. Is it fun to shoot? Is it accurate enough for your purposes?

And FWIW, the DSA SA58 and JLD PTR-91 are both made in the U.S. They're very similar stories. The SA58, of course, is a FAL clone, while the PTR-91 is an HK-91 clone. DSA bought out the FN-licensed tooling that Steyr had used to make FAL's in Austria, and moved it to the U.S. That tooling now produces SA58's. JLD bought out the HK-licensed tooling that used to make G3's for the Portuguese military, and moved it to the U.S. That tooling now produces PTR-91's.

 

[Luchtaine]

oh well. maybe I'll flip a coin then. I don't think much utility is going to exist among this bunch they are all 16" ish barreled .308s guess the best thing to do is get my hands on them.

So Reliability is the only issue I can't actually resolve without experiance.

 

[iamkris]

If reliability is your deciding factor, good luck trying to make a differentiation between an HK, FAL and M14 pattern weapon. AK variant may have slightly higher ability to work through muck but that's it.

 

[Ian]

I've got a huge crush on my M1 tanker. It's handy (the size of an 18" riot shotgun), reliable (4 days at Front Sight without being cleaned and had zero malfunctions), unusual, accurate (2 MOA with good surplus ammo), and cheap (less than $700 - half what an M1A Scout costs).

In addition, it has a cleaning rod and kit in the stock, a bayonet lug (we all know that bayonets are cool), a very nice trigger (for a stock rifle, that is), great sights, and was made in the US with a forged receiver (if that floats your boat).

They aren't everybody's idea of a wonderful rifle (and you do have to take some care to avoid the crappy ones), but I do like mine.

 

[Luchtaine]

Yeah pretty much, accuracy within reason, but what good is the most accurate rifle if you don't have complete confidence it will fire?

Its going to only have iron sights anyways so I can't see makeing silly accuracy demands (maybe an aimpoint type scope someday). So I will make reliabilty ones instead!

Its probably going to mainly eat surplus ammo.

 

[Father Knows Best]

The AK is a very reliable platform in 7.62x39, but I don't know about the .308 versions. Of the other platforms on your list, I'd vote for the PTR-91 and preban HK-91 as most reliable. Thanks to their unique operating system (roller-locked delayed blowback instead of the gas system used by all the others) and fluted chambers, they will operate under the worst conditions imaginable and with zero maintenance. The PTR-91 will be a lot cheaper, and is just as well built (and just as reliable) as a "real" HK.

 

[Luchtaine]

Good things to know about the PTR-91, I hadn't found much out there about the HK clones. So I apprecaite the information on them.

Aesthetically speaking the HKs always been my farvorite, though I don't know that much about them mechanically so hence the Thread. suprised they are cheaper than the FAL clones too.

 

[Shane333]

My neighbor's father has the Saiga .308 (AK) with the 16 inch barrel. He absolutely loves it.

Pros:
AK reliability
Surprisingly good accuracy for an AK. Not a super sniper rifle, but very good battle rifle accuracy.
A variety of optics are available, and you can use the irons while the optics are installed.

Cons:
No standard high capacity mags right now (that I know of). You can convert it to accept other mags, but it requires a little gunsmithing.

 

[cslinger]

I love HK 91 pattern guns but Lord was the guy who designed them a gorilla. He sure as hell designed it for some kind of gorilla uber soldier with those controls being so far apart. I cannot reach the standard magazine release with my girly hands and the safety is pain as well.

Chris

 

[Luchtaine]

I'm suprised the Socom is beating the HK, I guess because I divded the HK people between PRe-Ban and the wor around one...

Maybe I should ask people what Makes the DSA SA better than the STG, since they seem to like it better and DSA seems to think its worth more.

Girly hands are not a problem here... though I wouldn't say I have gorrilla hands either, plus the hair on a gorilla might get causht in the mechanisms somewhere could be painful. I've never actually held any of them but I am going to be in Colorado next week so maybe I'll go browseing if I can find some gun stores in the Gunnison, Grand juction area...

Also going to be trying to find some land I can shoot longer range on with my m1a and the 22-250 something in the 500yrd+ department...

 

[Father Knows Best]

I love HK 91 pattern guns but Lord was the guy who designed them a gorilla. He sure as hell designed it for some kind of gorilla uber soldier with those controls being so far apart. I cannot reach the standard magazine release with my girly hands and the safety is pain as well.

The only ergo problem I have with the HK is the mag release, and that's not HK's fault. The original design (the G3 with selective fire controls) had a "paddle" type mag release, just like an AK. When you grasped a mag with your left hand, your thumb fell naturally onto the paddle. Just squeeze and remove the mag. Nothing could be easier.

When HK came out with a semi-auto only version (the HK-91), they did it by replacing the lower receiver on the G3 with a semi-auto only lower. At some point, ATF realized that you could convert a 91 into a G3 just by pulling a couple of pins and swapping a G3 lower onto a 91 upper. As a result, ATF banned further import until HK modified the 91's upper so it would not accept G3 lowers.

The modification that HK made was to eliminate the front pin that connected the lower to the upper. The HK 91 lowers now had a "step" that hooked over a ledge on the upper, instead of a pin. Here's where the problem comes in -- the paddle mag release rotated on that pin. Since the pin was removed, there was nothing for the paddle to mount to. Instead, HK just left the button on the right side of the upper. It is indeed a pain to operate.

So you can thank your friendly ATF for the awful ergonomics of the HK 91 mag release. The good news is that there are solutions to the problem. First, you can buy a G3 paddle mag release, and have it installed on your 91. There are a number of gunsmiths who do the conversion. It's pricey, though -- about $100-150 for parts and labor.

A cheaper solution is the Tac-latch: http://www.taclatch.com. It doesn't work exactly like an original paddle mag release, but it is very close. It's in the same location, but it moves side-to-side instead of front-to-back. I actually find it to be quicker and easier than an authentic paddle release. It's inexpensive and easy to install in about 5 minutes with no permanent mods to the host gun.

As far as the safety goes, I have no problem with it. I find it very easy to manipulate with my thumb. It's easier to use than my AK's safety, and about the same as my FAL's.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Maybe I should ask people what Makes the DSA SA better than the STG, since they seem to like it better and DSA seems to think its worth more

They are built on the same receivers. As I understand it, though, the SA58 uses all new parts, while the STG58 is assembled from used parts taken off decommissioned FALs. The quality and condition of those parts can vary a lot.

 

[biere]

If you research the ar10 stuff see how well the bushmaster version is doing since it takes cheap fal mags.

I never liked having to mess with m1a mags to make mags for an ar10, course I have not been paying attention so maybe you can get new ar10 mags now.

One thing you mention is that you plan to get a fullsize m1a. Since the sights and mags and controls would be the same I would go with a short m1a.

My current thinking is I want to go to a couple gun schools to learn some shooting skills and what not and I have decided that rather than try to shoot several rifles I am going to pick one platform and learn it.

Course I am still figuring out which one to choose.

 

[Luchtaine]

I already have the Big M1a, I dunno a stumpy m14 isn't that attractive to me. Though I have no qualms with them I rather like them. I just wanted something different. Learning operations not a big deal. its just something that comes as you use them I guess.

I was looking for something along the "assualt rifle" configuartion lines, though I did notice they were makeing stocks for the M1a with pistolgrip anf folding butt I think it was fulton armory, however, the stock cost almost as much as the PTR-91 does...

and the STG 58 I guess all have to say is true.

Atf laws on top of laws leading to poor ergonomics not that supriseing, the link for that mag release you put up doesn't seem to work though

 

[Father Knows Best]

the link for that mag release you put up doesn't seem to work though

Durn html editor....

try it now

 

[Luchtaine]

Thanks.

So fa I still want them all. I guess I am going to have to wait till I get each in my hands to decide.

Though I think the Pre-bans are out seems to me that people are confident in the work around ones that are made here. As, with everyting its all about finding someone that knows what they are doing, atleast thats my analysis of the whole situation.

No problems with this latch compromiseing the catches ability to hold the magazine I would assume or you wouldn't have recommended it.

You'd think though if they can work the paddle back into the thing they can rework the G3 lower.... not that I am in anyways saying I would or would suggest such action just noteing flaws in logic here.