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308 Brass Growing During Sizing?

DMW1116

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
4,396
I’ve been sizing some 308 brass I traded into and found many pieces get longer after sizing. In fact all the ones I’ve measured grew by up to 0.005”. To my knowledge they are once fired from a bolt action, though I’m planning to use them in an AR 10.

Does this just happen sometimes, depending on the difference between the fired chamber and my dies? I’m using Lee 308 Winchester dies. Am I doing something wrong?

Specifically the last one I sized started at 2.008” and went up to 2.013” after sizing. Based on the first batch, 20 out of 25 will need to be trimmed, which is 2.008” with my Lee trimmer and lock stud.
 
For whatever reason, once fired brass is always over length on the first resizing.

I shot a lot of brass through my M1a before I earned my Distinguished Markmanship Badge with the thing, and a Regional Gold. I also used a number of different sizing dies, having purchased a Redding small base die, RCBS small base die, Lyman small base, a standard Lee die, and a Bonanza match die.

I always found case growth in the first five to ten resizings of fired brass, more trimming required in early resizing, but the amount that needed to be trimmed lessened with the number of times resized. High mileage brass maybe a thousandth of an inch of trimming. Something that caused real "case growth" was a change of sizing die. A case sized by the Lee die/RCBS/Redding/Bonanza/Lyman, fired and then sized by a different die would require a lot of trimming. Just this weekend I used a new Lyman small base die to size my M1a brass fired in a local Highpower match. That brass, on its seventh firing, probably had been sized with the RCBS die, and all of the cases were in the range of 2.015" before trimming. I trim my cases to 2.00".

I cannot explain this case growth due to different sizing dies other than I see it, and it is real.

If you are going to shoot your brass in a AR10 always full length resize your brass, size to gauge minimum. Use a case gauge to do this.

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Gas guns are brutal on brass, trying cutesie practices such as neck sizing will cause failures to feed and failures to eject in a gas gun and won't extend case life. Accept a lessened case life with a gas gun. (I always lost cases in the weeds, my PTR91 kicks them into hyperspace!) And I recommend, use a small base die. One of the most common malfunctions with gas guns is using brass fired in a different rifle, and finding the cases are fat and cause failures to feed, or failures to eject. Different chambers are cut with different reamers, some reamers are much larger than others, and cases ejected from a large chamber are always problematic when used later in a gas gun with a match chamber.

And, I recommend trimming brass each and every time, just because case growth is so unpredictable.
 
As a matter of physics, brass should always get longer when sized. We’re squishing the same mass into a narrower shape, it’s pretty difficult to accidentally squish brass thicker, so it is more willing to move around. Squeeze a full water bottle sitting on a table - it gets taller.
 
Being a lefty in a time of rarity (of lefty bolt guns), I only have lever-matic and semi-automatic rifles, so I fully size everything. Yes, my AR 10 is pretty rough on brass especially if the gas block is set too high for the load. There is at least one powder I won't use anymore and another that is questionable.

I figure the sides of the case get blown out to seal against the chamber walls, so it's not really surprising that squeezing them back into place lengthens the overall case. It doesn't hurt to be sure. Plenty of people did things wrong that made perfect sense at the time.

I've not had any issues with brass sized in these dies. Most of my 308 brass that I've shot so far came from another AR 10, and some came from a Ruger Precision. The rest is range brass. The extractor chews up the rims a little, and the impact with the concrete at the range tables is a little more pronounced than with the lighter 223 and 9mm cases I normally collect. Still, I don't think I have any 308 brass that's headed towards its third firing yet. I have some in a bucket that has been fired twice, but I haven't cleaned it. I'm saving it for my 150 grain FMJ load. It'll be a while before I start loading a large quantity of that. I have three other loads waiting to be used up first. As much as it pains me to spend the money on more IMR 4064, I'm kinda holding out for some in the FMJ loads. It's hard to turn away from 1.25" test groups with a FMJ bullet.
 
As a matter of physics, brass should always get longer when sized. We’re squishing the same mass into a narrower shape, it’s pretty difficult to accidentally squish brass thicker, so it is more willing to move around. Squeeze a full water bottle sitting on a table - it gets taller.
Brass will get longer when sized, metal has to go somewhere.
 
I have to trim .30-30 brass fired in a leveraction and necksized only for reloads. (Also I found virgin brass sold for reloading was left long in the neck and had to be trimmed to size for first use.)

It is not surprising to me that brass for a high intensity cartridge like .308 grows in resizing. I learned by experience.
 
The difference between your die and chamber is the growth controller. As range pickups one cannot assume what the firing platform was, but that can be observed in sizing. Gas guns generally blow out the brass more with bigger chambers and the extraction process.... if you check the brass prior to sizing, the wider pieces will grow more, and those with a higher number on the comparator. I don't see stability in my loadings aka tight tolerance matching until the 3rd firing, 2 rounds in my gun and die.
 
Well that certainly explains why I don't really see things stabilizing. I have not reloaded any rifle cartridge cases more than twice, and then it was light charges of 223.
 
Use a case gauge to do this.

I have a Wilson case gauge like in Slam's photo. Be aware of what each particular gauge does...

Because I'm a manly man, I don't need to read directions when I get a new tool, because I know, you know? I dropped my M1a fired .308 brass in the Wilson gauge and I was surprised that it dropped right in! Wow! I'm thinking I lucked out and have some match chamber or something. Then I realized what the Wilson gauge, specifically, does... it simply measures case length off the shoulder. You can easily find long cases (by the neck protruding from the front of the stepped gauge, and/or if the shoulder isn't shoved back far enough... by the case head protruding from the stepped rear of the gauge. It is NOT a measurement of case dimension pertaining to the chamber, other than what I outlined prior. In other words, it's sort of a plunk gauge for fired or sized brass to see if the length dimensions are right.


And I recommend, use a small base die.

An SB die can't hurt, but I don't think they are necessarily necessary every time. I don't own any SB dies... and I don't have any problems... with my weapons. I'm not saying they aren't ever necessary, but I wouldn't normally recommend them by default.


Still, I don't think I have any 308 brass that's headed towards its third firing yet. I have some in a bucket that has been fired twice, but I haven't cleaned it. I'm saving it for my 150 grain FMJ load. It'll be a while before I start loading a large quantity of that.

That's what I do with my brass... once it's cycled 3 or 4 times, it goes into the 'blasting ammos' pile... for my generic 150grn FMJ load. That way, if it gets stepped on, chewed up, or lost, it's no big deal.
 
That's what I do with my brass... once it's cycled 3 or 4 times, it goes into the 'blasting ammos' pile... for my generic 150grn FMJ load. That way, if it gets stepped on, chewed up, or lost, it's no big deal.
Life of a case in a bolt is markedly different than a semi. I consider stability all shoulders blown out and having .001 variation. Most factory brass is way short -.006 or .007 from my chamber. Some range pickups need the shoulder pushed back round one. Most are pushed by the second firing. I don't try and go hot on the first loading, because I fall into the group that thinks the case head work hardens each firing and if you go nuts early you can smoke pockets right out of the gate...
 
Wilson and Dillon case gauges only measure shoulder position and overall case length. They are cut generously in the body dimensions. Read the manufacturer's fine print.

Sheridan gauges are cut to SAAMI minimum chamber specs and can serve as a check for case chambering as long as your rifle does not have a smaller than spec chamber.

As already well explained, bottleneck rifle cases do get longer during resizing. Which is why you always determine the need for trimming the case after sizing not before.

Side note, I prefer small base dies for my semi-auto rifles, particularly where I have several rifles chambered in the same cartridge.

If you only have one rifle, a standard sizing die should size cases fine but be aware you might have some chambering problems sizing cases (range pick-ups, gun show once fired, etc) fired in a rifle other than yours.
 
Life of a case in a bolt is markedly different than a semi. I consider stability all shoulders blown out and having .001 variation. Most factory brass is way short -.006 or .007 from my chamber. Some range pickups need the shoulder pushed back round one. Most are pushed by the second firing. I don't try and go hot on the first loading, because I fall into the group that thinks the case head work hardens each firing and if you go nuts early you can smoke pockets right out of the gate...

If the case head is work hardening that means it is deforming. I know I’ve deformed my share of case heads, but it was totally by accident and obvious from casual observation.
 
If the case head is work hardening that means it is deforming. I know I’ve deformed my share of case heads, but it was totally by accident and obvious from casual observation.
How hard you hit it makes a difference. My first load is normally like a good target midrange load. A 155 with 42.5 tac. Once I'm satisfied a 45 grain load of 4064 with a 165-168 is full power. I haven't life rested a piece of brass to failure nut my rp set is 5x plus the 1 from being picked up. I get very little brass movements now and my rem 700 with 5r is not a match chamber... they are loaded and ready to go again. I have trimmed them once, but I use mandrels not expander balls.
 
Never made it to 45 grains of IMR 4064. I made little relief impressions of my bolt face at 43 grains using 168 grain Hornady Amax bullets.

I’ll pay some more attention when I start working with brass I know has been fired from my rifle. It may not grow like the new stuff you sent.
 
This kind of pickiness is why I’m tempted to get a bolt action in a different caliber. Then I won’t have to worry about a 308 load mix up.
 
I have a Wilson case gauge like in Slam's photo. Be aware of what each particular gauge does...

Because I'm a manly man, I don't need to read directions when I get a new tool, because I know, you know? I dropped my M1a fired .308 brass in the Wilson gauge and I was surprised that it dropped right in! Wow! I'm thinking I lucked out and have some match chamber or something. Then I realized what the Wilson gauge, specifically, does... it simply measures case length off the shoulder. You can easily find long cases (by the neck protruding from the front of the stepped gauge, and/or if the shoulder isn't shoved back far enough... by the case head protruding from the stepped rear of the gauge. It is NOT a measurement of case dimension pertaining to the chamber, other than what I outlined prior. In other words, it's sort of a plunk gauge for fired or sized brass to see if the length dimensions are right.

RENM6gZ.jpg

Sheridan cuts their gauges with a minimum reamer, so it "should" be dimension ally correct in all directions for a SAAMI minimum chamber.

XOHUEzE.jpg





An SB die can't hurt, but I don't think they are necessarily necessary every time. I don't own any SB dies... and I don't have any problems... with my weapons. I'm not saying they aren't ever necessary, but I wouldn't normally recommend them by default.

Kick open enough actions on the firing line, (one scope stand, inside is a well used cleaning rod, used by many to knock out their cases!) and you will start to see patterns. The most common cause of failures to eject in match service rifles (or 223 Spaceguns) is brass fired in another rifle and sized with a standard sizing die. I have to admit I am a cheap skate and will gladly use range pickup brass, because brass quality makes zero difference in my offhand scores! (luck helps, but that is about it!) So if I loose some range pickup case in the weeds, I don't have a panic attack. And so, small base dies all around, in every caliber I can find them.

That's what I do with my brass... once it's cycled 3 or 4 times, it goes into the 'blasting ammos' pile... for my generic 150grn FMJ load. That way, if it gets stepped on, chewed up, or lost, it's no big deal.

I lubricate my gas gun brass, so I don't have case head separations or sidewall stretch, and then I will shoot the stuff till I get neck splits, body splits, or the primer pockets get too loose for comfort. A penny saved, is a penny earned!

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Just this weekend at our local Highpower match, buds asked me if I ever annealed my brass. I never did when I was active. I did not have time for all the esoteric stuff when I was shooting 88 rounds every weekend. I also did not need to with an iron sighted rifle on a 2 MOA target. F Class shooters are seeing things I never saw prone with a sling, and they are doing things with their ammunition that takes a lot more time to reload.
 
This kind of pickiness is why I’m tempted to get a bolt action in a different caliber. Then I won’t have to worry about a 308 load mix up.
Whether you get a bolt rifle chambered different cartridge or the same cartridge as your semi-auto rifle, the effort to keep brass segregated is about the same.

On the advantage to having a bolt rifle chambered in the same cartridge as the semi-auto, you have a source of cases for the bolt rifle.

While I have a 308 Win bolt rifle (Rem 788) and a 308 Win semi-auto (Springfield M1A and 308W Garand) I have not shot many rounds of through the semi-autos. But, I have shot lots of rounds through a 223 Rem semi-auto and moved the cases to a bolt rifle after a few cycles in the semi-auto guns.

My main failure mode of cases in the semi-auto gun is oversize primer pockets. If I do three or so reloading cycles in the semi-auto guns and then move the cases to the bolt guns, I get many more reloading cycles from the cases.

With a little effort, it is not difficult to keep the cases segregated.

But, having rifles chambered in different cartridges take the thought process out of the equation and makes segregating cases by rifle a bit more idiot proof.
 
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For consideration:

A LOT of shooters believe their AR’s have “loose chambers,” because of how big their brass comes out after firing, completely unaware of WHY their brass is expanding so much. Commercial AR’s are notoriously over gassed to ensure feeding reliability, but this tends to mean the action is unlocking while the bore and chamber are still under excessive pressure, so we see a LOT of case stretch. It’s pretty common to see fired brass fit back into a bolt gun, but rather rare to see that happen for AR’s - the chambers aren’t stretching, the chambers aren’t loose, it’s just that the cases are getting blown out while the bolt is in motion, resulting in additional stretch, both in base diameter and shoulder length. Tune down your gas flow and you’ll see that symptom subside, and brass lasts much, much longer.
 
It’s not really an issue of segregating cases so much as not getting loads mixed up. A 45 grain load of IMR 4064 is not something I want to try in my AR but would probably work fine in a bolt action. I could use powders I won’t use anymore in my AR.

Currently my gas block is adjusted for my 7.62 NATO load with 168 grain Speer match bullets. One click lower and it won’t function. Brass seems fine minus the extractor scratches. Other powders and some factory ammo requires a different setting to not be over gassed to the point the bolt extracts while the case is still stuck to the chamber walls. The chance I forget is pretty high so I don’t use that powder for 308. I try to stick to service rifle loads and even then they stay in the low side. I could push marbles out of this rifle with IMR 4064 and get good results except for Hornady Amax.
 
For consideration:

A LOT of shooters believe their AR’s have “loose chambers,” because of how big their brass comes out after firing, completely unaware of WHY their brass is expanding so much. Commercial AR’s are notoriously over gassed to ensure feeding reliability, but this tends to mean the action is unlocking while the bore and chamber are still under excessive pressure, so we see a LOT of case stretch. It’s pretty common to see fired brass fit back into a bolt gun, but rather rare to see that happen for AR’s - the chambers aren’t stretching, the chambers aren’t loose, it’s just that the cases are getting blown out while the bolt is in motion, resulting in additional stretch, both in base diameter and shoulder length. Tune down your gas flow and you’ll see that symptom subside, and brass lasts much, much longer.
Thanks buddy, I just learned something.
 
The most common cause of failures to eject in match service rifles (or 223 Spaceguns) is brass fired in another rifle and sized with a standard sizing die. I have to admit I am a cheap skate and will gladly use range pickup brass, because brass quality makes zero difference in my offhand scores! (luck helps, but that is about it!) So if I loose some range pickup case in the weeds, I don't have a panic attack. And so, small base dies all around, in every caliber I can find them.

I am glad to hear this from another shooter. For semi-auto rifles, chambering problems can occur when using standard sizing dies with cases not fired in your rifle.

It is not a big issue but it can bite you in the butt at the most inopertive time if you do not keep the issue under consideration. .
 
Of note - some brands of dies do use minimum base diameters, essentially, using "Small Base" dimensions for their "standard" dies. Lee and Dillon are two examples - so often we do see guys talking about never having issues after many years despite NOT using Small Base dies, while they've effectively been using Small Base dies the whole time. But there's also very little - effectively NO - downside to using Small Base dies, assuming you have the necks opened sufficiently (for example, using Redding Small Base Bushing dies, or simply using a Small Base Body Die) to avoid the commonly undersized necks of most Small Base Dies. So if a guy is loading for multiple rifles, especially with potential to cross over between barrels, or especially loading for slide action or semiauto actions, there's no downside to the extra insurance of small base dies.
 
For consideration:

A LOT of shooters believe their AR’s have “loose chambers,” because of how big their brass comes out after firing, completely unaware of WHY their brass is expanding so much. Commercial AR’s are notoriously over gassed to ensure feeding reliability, but this tends to mean the action is unlocking while the bore and chamber are still under excessive pressure, so we see a LOT of case stretch. It’s pretty common to see fired brass fit back into a bolt gun, but rather rare to see that happen for AR’s - the chambers aren’t stretching, the chambers aren’t loose, it’s just that the cases are getting blown out while the bolt is in motion, resulting in additional stretch, both in base diameter and shoulder length. Tune down your gas flow and you’ll see that symptom subside, and brass lasts much, much longer.


I agree, over gassing is a problem.

Gene Barnett used a commercial drill one size larger than the GI ports on his M1 and M1a match barrels. I assume the GI gas port drills were custom made to the needs of the pressure curve, not based on the inventory of Tool World. The Wilson match M1 barrel I have, the gas port hole is much larger than GI, and it recoiled so violently, I took it off. When I "gauged" GI M1 barrels and compared the holes to the Wilson match, the GI were smaller. And the existing gas port holes on GI M1 barrels were smaller than the "in print" dimensions which claim to be Mil Spec.

And it is not as if GI rifles were over gassed to begin with.

A custom barrel maker and gunsmith told me Kreiger replacement barrels for the M1 and M1a were cut with a reamer that left a large head. His opinion why this was the situation, was so future customers would not call up and complain to Kreiger about their new barrels not chambering their old reloads.


For decades in print writers have been claiming small base dies were not needed for the M1a, M1 Garand, etc. Gunwriter Mike Venturino was one. For decades he had been writing in print that only standard sizing dies are need. But in the July 2012 issue of Guns Magazine, he was testing an M1a and a AR10 and his reloads were too tight. I found it humorous to read that he had to beat the bolts open with scrape lumber. Ha, Ha.

At least Mike Venturino changed his tune, now he recommends small base dies for M1's, M1a's.

I will say, my Ruger Tactical M77 in 308 Win, the chamber mouth is extraordinarily large. Cases neck expand a lot. This is one of those hammer forged barrels, is very accurate, and that large chamber mouth will crack brass. I am sure Ruger did this on purpose so no one's ammunition is pinched in the throat.

The thing is, with gas guns, the reloader will learn that gas guns require much more attention to reloading than bolt guns. Reloaders get used to beating the bolt closed on their bolt gun, stuffing any old powder in the case, any old bullet, and any old primer, and that sort of stuff will jam a semi auto.

And, everyone is surprised when a sensitive "match" primer slamfires in their gas gun. Been decades of denial on that. Federals were the most slamfiring primer in M1's and M1a's. I collected slamfire reports on all military semi auto's, and with the exception of the roller bolts, all of them have in battery, and some out of battery, slamfire accounts with factory ammunition. And it is all due to free floating firing pins hitting sensitive primers during chambering.

The G3 roller bolt mechanism uses a firing pin spring that is very strong, and does not leave a dent on the primer of a chambered round.

I sent this M1 bolt to Roland Beaver for modification to reduce the impact energy of the firing pin on the primer.

KUS04o6.jpg

and it still does this

EmFZNNP.jpg

I wonder why that primer did not ignite.
And yet there are those who deny that primers will go off due to firing pin inertia!
 
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But there's also very little - effectively NO - downside to using Small Base dies

That was going to be my next question, after thinking about it.

If there is no downside to SB dies, why do the die manufacturers produce standard dies in the first place?
 
The thing is, with gas guns, the reloader will learn that gas guns require much more attention to reloading than bolt guns. Reloaders get used to beating the bolt closed on their bolt gun, stuffing any old powder in the case, any old bullet, and any old primer, and that sort of stuff will jam a semi auto.
I almost always agree, but this is a point of departure. I have never beat on any gun ever for any reason. I don't load stupid hot so I don't lock up my bolt on over pressure or sizing. I have tested with crush fit, head space +.001 but that cammed lightly in with my well greased lugs... I have also never beat on my mini-14.
 
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