.357 Magnum Too Much Recoil?

[GooseGestapo]

Sometimes 5-600rds a day.
Ever shot a 1500 match x2 ? (300rds).
And then, a 48rd Service revolver match, Semi-auto service match, Semi-auto "Distinguished" match (60rds), Revolver "Distinguished" match (another 60rds), And "off-duty" revolver match, another 48rds.

Just a single days matches runs to 564rds. And then add the 120rds for "team" matches. Now we're up to 784rds. Doesn't count the shotgun or patrol carbine matches......

Now you know why I've worn out several presses, several PPC revolvers. and several semi-auto's. (Haven't been able to wear out my S&W Perf. Ctr auto's however...). I'm on my 3rd barrel on my S&W mod10 I won at the 1994 NRA "Nationals" (1st place "Master" Class, got bumped to "high-master".)

And, add in the 2-3x a week practicing, you understand why I got "burned" out on bullet casting and started using Precision Delta swaged bullets for the revolvers and Remington "bulk" jacketed bullets for the SA's.......

Since retiring, I've gone through only 110,000 primers, however. That's how I keep up with the "round" count. (last 6yrs). I "only" have 30,000 Small pistol primers on hand at the minute.

Now, you know the secret to "winning" National level matches and "setting" National records.
Just like my violin teacher and band director in highschool taught me.......
Practice, practice, practice.
Till you "get it right"......

 

[jmr40]

Buying a chronograph was eye opening for me. I made the decision to go 9mm over 357 mag after looking at actual velocities. From a 4" barrel most 125 gr 357 ammo is actually getting 1300 fps or so (sometimes less). The velocities printed are usually from longish 8" or so test barrels with no cylinder gap to contend with. Real world velocities are often quite a bit slower. I can get an honest 1200 fps with 124 gr 9mm ammo with a lot less muzzle blast and recoil. Not to mention 3X as many rounds.

I still own 357's and as 1911 Tuner pointed out it is a better choice in a long barreled outdoorsmans gun shooting heavier bullets.

 

[Kendal Black]

So...How Loud Is It?

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

The above link gives the noise levels of various popular guns and cartridges; the .357 Magnum is right on up there!

Bear in mind that (IIRC) decibels is not a linear scale but a log scale, so a small increase in dB represents a big increase in noise. +3 dB is double the sound energy, but the ear's response isn't linear to this, so +10 dB, more or less, is perceived as twice as loud. (I googled around for that last bit, http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...ceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=decibels+twice+as+loud )

Anybody know which number you look at, +3 or +10, in estimating long term hearing damage? If all we are asking about is how much noise distraction from the shot, I would think it is the +10 (perceived) level.

What I mean is, the table of gunshot sounds lists the .357 as 8 dB louder than .38 Spl. and 4.5 dB louder than a 9mm. So you wouldn't perceive it as twice as loud as either, but what would your audiologist say?

 

[valnar]

From guns of equal weight, the amount of recoil scales to the weight of the bullet, times the velocity, so the amount of force involved in firing 125 grains at 1450 is like that of firing 250 grains at 725, and people in cowboy hats do that all the time.

Hmmm. That might be a good rule of thumb, but I think a 125gr .357 going 1450fps has a lot more kick than a 230gr .45ACP at 890fps from a similar weight gun. The math still works out the same. Sure, the bullet may not be quite double the weight, but the speed is more than half the .357's velocity.

The cowboy shooters is the empirical example. They can shoot their .45LC cowboy rounds one handed, but I'd like to see them do that multiple times with a .357

 

[BullfrogKen]

I've fired 9x23 in the shoothouses at the club without hearing protection before. It's uncomfortable. But I have hearing damage from my time in the Infantry already.

It didn't incapacitate me. It didn't make me deaf. It did make the next few days uncomfortable.


I've gone to the club's indoor range and did some studies on muzzle flash in low light conditions a few years back. The only time my vision was affected to the point I couldn't see for a few seconds was when I turned the lights completely off and it was pitch black. In light conditions like that, I really can't see the target and what's beyond it to safely make a shot without a flashlight anyway.

The muzzle flash from a magnum round is a lot less intense than a flashlight. If it's dark enough that your eyes need time to adjust to see again, you really ought to be using a light source to identify your target and what's beyond it anyway. If there's enough ambient light to identify your target and what's beyond it, your eyes won't suffer from the effects of the muzzle flash.

 

[Stainz]

Wow. I'm impressed. At $30/1k primers alone - that's $3,300 worth of primers alone.

Now, back to the original question - re the use of 125gr .357M in defending one's self. I always go back to it's original design requirement - to make it through a car door in return fire at fleeing felons in the thirties. It was proven to be a great hunting round then, too. Police often carried .32 S&W - .38 S&W, with the hottest, the .38 Spcl, few and far between. That changed - the .38 Special became king. Even the FBI carried the +P 158gr LHPSWC in their snub .357 M's (19's). It is a proven man-stopper - and won't pop your eardrums. It's my choice.

Disclaimer: The closest I've ever come to being to being a LE type was in the USN - as SP. I am a plinker - I have owned and shot a myriad of cf revolvers, from 7.62 Nagant to .454 Casull. As I age, I find solace in .38's - and wimpy .44's & .45's, and, gasp, even .22 LR's. I am no stranger to competition - and - not much good, either - my wife beats me at SPC!

But - I am also pragmatic enough to know that I am responsible for every inch of travel of any round I discharge anywhere - including in my home and car. For that reason alone, I would not shoot a 125gr .357 Magnum in defending myself unless at a charging beast in the woods - and then I'd rather have my .44 Magnum or .45 Colt. I vote no - but YMMV.

Stainz

 

[oldfool]

I am no expect on audiology, Kendall
(I do have bionic ears now, but they don't work when the batteries go dead)

This I believe - most hearing damage is not one-event, it's most often cumulative
absent hearing protection; you can eventually do yourself long term damage even with rimfire stuff
The LOUDER the load, the faster the cumulative damage happens. I myself would doubt that any one shot fired from any handgun would ever blow your ears out all at once.

bottom line
if the BG is trying to kill you, shoot him, don't hesitate
whether you hear about it later or not, you can at least read about it later

but.. do thyself no great harm on purpose
wear hearing protection every little chance you get

PS
My hearing loss is at least partly genetics, aided and abetted by industrial noise, etc., etc.
Shooting probably did not help me any, but aside from one stupid moment that most surely did not help me any, I am pretty serious about saving what little I have left
(and muzzle flash will not 'incapacitate' you, or 'blind' you.. but it will not help you with that 2nd or 3rd shot either)

 

[LTR shooter]

.357 Magnum Too Much Recoil?

The recoil of 125s out of a 6" 686 is very manageable. It's the muzzle blast that is excessive. I read where shooters have shot bunches of rounds of 125s at the range. In a defensive situation there are no earplugs used. I have a six inch 686 myself and rarely shoot the 125s.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Muzzle blast/noise bother me more than recoil, so I'm transitioning my collection from .357 to .44 spl.
I have pretty bad tinnitus in both ears (from the Navy and working in factories), so I no longer shoot magnum anything.
The .44 spl is very easy on the ears and there is no muzzle flash.

 

[oldfool]

and that's all I am saying here guys
"easy on the ears and there is no muzzle flash."
(or I presume 'easier' and 'minimal' vs. none)

you don't have to go full hot/fast mag 357 to get effective stopping power
you can go to slower velocities, you can go to bigger/heavier/slower bullets and calibers
your choice, lots of choices

 

[jrb_pro]

Just keep an AK-47 or a 12 gauge for home defense (the former choice if over penetration is completely a non-issue).

 

[PO2Hammer]

you don't have to go full hot/fast mag 357 to get effective stopping power
you can go to slower velocities, you can go to bigger/heavier/slower bullets and calibers
your choice, lots of choices

True. If I had to use a .357, I would pick a 158 JHP, a little less noisy, a lot less flashy, and I won't complain about deeper penetration.

 

[oldfool]

I shoot k-frames, so I backed off hot 125s long ago, only occasionally shoot some 158s at range 'just because'
(my one near dark moment was with 125s, enough to convince me it was a little more 'help' than I really needed)
38+P is what I choose for me, but not saying everybody else should choose same

PS
I ain't going near the FAQ flashlight topic
some do, some don't, I don't, that's all

 

[Kendal Black]

Its bark is worse than its bite...

Quote:
From guns of equal weight, the amount of recoil scales to the weight of the bullet, times the velocity, so the amount of force involved in firing 125 grains at 1450 is like that of firing 250 grains at 725, and people in cowboy hats do that all the time.

Hmmm. That might be a good rule of thumb, but I think a 125gr .357 going 1450fps has a lot more kick than a 230gr .45ACP at 890fps from a similar weight gun. The math still works out the same. Sure, the bullet may not be quite double the weight, but the speed is more than half the .357's velocity.

The cowboy shooters is the empirical example. They can shoot their .45LC cowboy rounds one handed, but I'd like to see them do that multiple times with a .357

The perception is the reality, sometimes. The full tilt .357 is such a rambunctious critter when you touch it off that people get an exaggerated idea of what it is and does. All that noise! All that flash! Sometimes the brass sticks in the chamber, even--a frequent complaint. So it must be a real doozie, though the record tells us it is, in fact, a pretty good defense cartridge and sorta marginal for deer (where legal).

What I am driving at is that if people think they have a tiger by the tail they may well think they are being kicked harder than they are. Similarly with the noise factor. If what I posted above is not far in error, the .357 Mag should be perceived as less than half again as noisy as a 9mmP. Will your perception change if you are expecting a howitzer sound effect?

 

[valnar]

Kendal, Myself and others on this forum have fired thousands of .357Mag & 45.ACP or .45LC rounds in our lifetime. I've never seen anyone argue their recoil is similar regardless of noise or flash. I don't doubt there is a math formula where you can plug in weight & speed and come up with recoil, but I don't think it is as linear as you believe.

 

[sixgunner455]

I wouldn't use the 125 gr .357 as a defense load. In fact, I wouldn't use it at all. I use 125 gr .38 Specials and 158 gr .38 Specials as a street and home defense loads. I use 158 and 180 gr .357 loads as large animal defense loads when hiking, camping, or hunting. My .357 is my "go-to" when outdoors. When I am back at home, though, I swap out the magnum HC loads for .38 Special hollowpoints.

 

[shockwave]

Here's my answer to the OP's question: I was reading this thread, and remembered that my 686+ was loaded with .38+Ps. I got up, and swapped them out for .357 SWHPs.

Sure, might be a bit disorienting in the dark, might damage my hearing, but better that than enduring 14 hours of a home-invasion rape and torture-fest. For HD, there's no reason to go small. My primary is the Mossberg 500 but if necessary I'll grab the S&W.

The last time I had a serious bump-in-the-night situation, I had choices - could have gone for the shotgun, a .38spl or a 9mm. Instinctively, under stress, I went straight for the 686. There's just something about that gun that feels right.

 

[Kendal Black]

Kendal, Myself and others on this forum have fired thousands of .357Mag & 45.ACP or .45LC rounds in our lifetime. I've never seen anyone argue their recoil is similar regardless of noise or flash. I don't doubt there is a math formula where you can plug in weight & speed and come up with recoil, but I don't think it is as linear as you believe.

If I'm mistaken, it seems a pretty widespread mistake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm

 

[valnar]

I humbly stand corrected. So it must be other external factors like powder charge, muzzle blast (as you say) and perhaps the bore axis of the revolver.

 

[Kendal Black]

Valnar, I'll go along with all that! The 1911's bore axis is lower, cowboy guns have those lovely plow handle grips, and so on. So, yeah, there are more factors at work here.

 

[oldfool]

I agree again with Kendal

I have always myself believed that perceived recoil is very different than felt recoil
Magnums out of air weight snubbies, that is real deal felt recoil, no doubt about it
but "perception is everything", as they say

Humans are supposed to react to LOUD sudden noises and they do, survival instinct. 357 felt recoil out of a full size full weight gun is just not all that stout.

But there is a NOISE threshold that cannot be denied, you can only train yourself through it; that is the flinch factor, easily observed with a snap cap mixed with 5 live in a cylinder. It's the noise that will move your hand when the noise isn't even there, if/when you don't have you mental focus right.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The thing that bothers me about the .357 is not the recoil but the NOISE!

 

[sw282]

Want to see a REAL muzzle blast. Find some old SUPER VEL ammo in 357 mag. The 110grs are most common. They will light the sky up !!!

 

[[email protected]]

I've read all this hype about the recoil from the mighty 357 mag. I think it is
a bunch of hooey and I have never shot one. I just bought one and I am
almost 70 and I bought the baddest factory I could find. 125 gr Buffalo Bore
and their 180 grain. Both their heavest loads, When I do shoot this in about
2 weeks I will report back form experence. OH, I know you don't think I know
what I am talking about. Well we will see. The revolver is a old Ruger Service
Six in 2.75 barrel. This ought to be fun. But before you think I am nuts, let me
tell you I have shot thousands of rounds thru my old Ruger Blackhawk with
short 4 3/4 barrel of 300 gr. bullets at 1350 fps. and lots of 44 special in a
light 19 oz. Bulldog 200 gr. bullets at 1250 fps. So what's so bad about a
little bitty 125 gr bullet at say 1300fps . You talk about blast and noise. You
have seen nothing yet until you touch off 29 grs H-110 in a 4 3/4 barrel.
Well we shall see.

 

[Warp]

A lot of "casual" shooters burn through a million revolver rounds over time. I bet you may have CPE, if you count all rounds, unless you do only centerfire
a brick a week of 22 rimfire, 50 weeks a year is 25,000.. You do that for 40 years, that's a million, not even counting centerfire, a few thousand a year

Somebody who shoots 500+ rounds a week every week for 40 years is not a "casual" shooter. That is a lot of rounds.

Some day I hope to be able to shoot in my backyard after reloading in my basement. Some day...