357 Magnum vs 45 ACP
- Thread starter rugerman07
- Start date
- Status
un_lucky
Member
Rampant colt
It looks to me that your opinion is based on one website. Maybe you should go to Stoppingpower.net and do some reading.
It looks to me that your opinion is based on one website. Maybe you should go to Stoppingpower.net and do some reading.
Rampant_Colt
Member
Can you produce these alleged statistics? Bet ya can't 'cause they just don't exist! Please link me to this thread so i can add my input. I have all three books and can attest firsthand to the typos, misinformation and outright lies
http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm
The link i posted on page 3 shows three different people qualified in the study of ballistics and statistics prove M&S statistics are a hoax. Duncan MacPherson, Martin Fackler, Dr Gary Roberts and Maarten van Maanen all discredit those Stopping Power books
You obviously didn't bother to look at the link either.
ETA - i read page one of that thread and got a good laugh.
ps - it's 10mm -NOT- 10m.m
read more post less
Ignorance is bliss
Last edited:
Rampant_Colt
Member
Ed, is that you?
I've looked at that site and drew my own conclusion that it's a waste of time.
More information in THIS thread than that whole site. THIS page has tons of good info on the subject as well. I don't get my information off of one website.
If you want to study about terminal wound ballistics i suggest studying THIS book for useful information on the subject
Last edited:
moooose102
Member
6 of one, half dozen of another. either will stop a person admirably. but i would not use a full blown 357 magnum in doors at night for home defense. if you miss, it will take way to much time to be able to see to get a second shot off. i do not know if they make a self defense round for the 357 or not. either way, with a revolver, you have two flash points. one at the end of the barrel, and the other at the gap between the cylinder and forcing cone (barrel). if you have ever shot a 357 @ night, you will notice both. the end of the barrel is much more impressive though. also, .357 would probably go clean through your assailant, so if there are loved ones on the other side of the wall, well, lets just say, that's not a good thing.
texagun
Member
It has been shown over and over again that neither Marshall nor Sanow have any scientific background at all, and therefore, their "scientific studies" are seriously flawed because of the methods they used. They claimed they interviewed pathologists and police officers and autopsy technicians to get their data. Their primary source of information as stated in Volume I was "police-action shooting reports." Many who they claimed to have interviewed don't even remember talking to them.
Their "statistics" don't even consider follow-up shots or multiple hits and their definition of "stopping power" is that "the victim must be unable to continue hostile acts toward anyone, even if determined to do so." Even though their "scientific method" leaves something to be desired, their books are a good starting point in determining some of the most effective ammunition available to the public. Their percentage figures may not be right on the money, but the trends in their data do point towards what may be some of the most effective ammunition available. I also have all 3 of their books and they are worth reading for those interested in the subject. As far as 357 Magnum vs. 45 ACP, if I recall correctly, Marshall and Sanow state the 125 grain 357 Magnum hollowpoint is the most effective round that they have found in a handgun.
"Bullet placement is primary, adequate penetration is secondary, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin."
Their "statistics" don't even consider follow-up shots or multiple hits and their definition of "stopping power" is that "the victim must be unable to continue hostile acts toward anyone, even if determined to do so." Even though their "scientific method" leaves something to be desired, their books are a good starting point in determining some of the most effective ammunition available to the public. Their percentage figures may not be right on the money, but the trends in their data do point towards what may be some of the most effective ammunition available. I also have all 3 of their books and they are worth reading for those interested in the subject. As far as 357 Magnum vs. 45 ACP, if I recall correctly, Marshall and Sanow state the 125 grain 357 Magnum hollowpoint is the most effective round that they have found in a handgun.
"Bullet placement is primary, adequate penetration is secondary, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin."
Rampant_Colt
Member
you can't have it both waystexagun said:
First you discredit them, then you say it's worth reading.. Well which is it?
M&S aren't the first to make the claim that the .357 Magnum is an effective cartridge - they just hyped it up with their wild claims of "96% One Shot Stops" [using 125gr JHP bullets]
They DID, however, make the claim that the .45 ACP 230gr Federal Hydra-Shok gets 100% OSS when used in 5" inch barrels:
Taken from July 1996 issue of Peterson's Handguns magazine
100% one shot stops, folks. There you have it. All you need is a 5" barrel handgun and you've achieved perfection LoL
I don't know about speeds, penetration, ore terminal ballistics, what I do know is, when shooting with a friend, my .357 was making a two foot by three foot steel plate almost fall off the stand, while his .45 was making it wiggle a little. For what it's worth, I was shooting factory 158 grain flat nose bullets in a target load, he was shooting 230 grain lead semi wadcutters in a target load. His 1911 has a 5" barrel, my 686 has a 3" barrel. We were both double tapping at 15 yards. No timer, I can't tell you splits or who was faster. Accuracy was equivilant with both pistols.
Rampant_Colt said:
Indoors any gun can damage your hearing... The levels between a .357 and .45 and (the much advised) 12 gauge are virtually the same...
The muzzle flash is an issue, but it is also a psychological weapon. Even if you miss, the roar and the belch of 6" of flame would have the perp wanting to leave instead of possible die. The 12 gauge is similar in terms of noise, recoil and flash... The .45 depending on the ammo (anything other than .230 grain ball) and even some of those can produce a decent flash, using corbons for instance....
Capacity of the 1911 is something like 7 - 8... not a huge gain. Either is fine. Both are good. Shoot one from each hand...
DougDubya
Member
Rampant Colt - I no longer have time for your personal attacks and obfuscation.
Shoot all the jello you want. Fabricate all manner of excuses. Marshall doesn't teach one shot stop shooting and has been on SWAT callouts, and has been lead investigator in 25 years of Detroit murders. While I am not going to take his one shot stop results as an excuse to only fire one shot in self defense, calling him a liar is slander and a personal attack.
As such, your worth as a commentator has now been entirely negated in my eyes. Consider yourself irrelevant.
Shoot all the jello you want. Fabricate all manner of excuses. Marshall doesn't teach one shot stop shooting and has been on SWAT callouts, and has been lead investigator in 25 years of Detroit murders. While I am not going to take his one shot stop results as an excuse to only fire one shot in self defense, calling him a liar is slander and a personal attack.
As such, your worth as a commentator has now been entirely negated in my eyes. Consider yourself irrelevant.
texagun
Member
Rampant Colt Stated:
Since I have all 3 book written by Marshal and Sanow, perhaps you could give me the volume and page number for your statement. I find no such statement in any of their books. The 3nd volume (updated and latest data available at the time) shows the .45 230gr Federal Hydra-Shok as a 96% stopper.
Since I have all 3 book written by Marshal and Sanow, perhaps you could give me the volume and page number for your statement. I find no such statement in any of their books. The 3nd volume (updated and latest data available at the time) shows the .45 230gr Federal Hydra-Shok as a 96% stopper.
Rampant_Colt
Member
"Obfuscation" ? LoL - how long have you been waiting to slip that into a sentence?
Do you have any of their books, or have you read them? Doesn't sound like it to me..
Whether EM was on SWAT 'callouts' or lead investigator, doesn't change the fact that the information provided in those three books is false and misleading [more slander].
I'm neither a jello-junkie or morgue-monster, so don't label me as such.
If you won't talk to me anymore i think i'll get over it - maybe i'll even see you at Midwest Sporting Goods or Buffalo Rock and we can be fwiends again
ps - when you see Ed or Evan, tell them i want my $39.95 back
[the other two books were given to me as gifts]
Rampant_Colt
Member
R I F
as i stated in my post above, "taken from the July 1996 Peterson's Handguns"
The Canuck
Member
Shot Placement
DougDubya
Member
Rampant Colt - sorry 'bout that. I keep forgetting, this is just the internets. 'Sides, Marshall can protect himself... three handguns and a rifle in the car do that. I too have mentioned the imperfect science of their form of statistical sampling. Sorry for accusing you of being a morgue monkey or a jello junky.
'Sides, I'm a nine junky.
I also let my FOID lapse years ago when the price went up to $15 a year. As such, I just bounce around there if there seems to be something interesting in airsoft. I reserve my shootin' money for free states, like my trips to Utah. The airsoft stuff at Midwest, though, is beautiful.
Girlfriend + guns, for the win.
'Sides, I'm a nine junky.
I also let my FOID lapse years ago when the price went up to $15 a year. As such, I just bounce around there if there seems to be something interesting in airsoft. I reserve my shootin' money for free states, like my trips to Utah. The airsoft stuff at Midwest, though, is beautiful.
Girlfriend + guns, for the win.
DougDubya
Member
PS - I don't care much for Ed, and I actually use obfuscation quite often. That's the trouble with writing for a living. You end up using your $10 words more often.
Rampant_Colt
Member
It's all good.
In the end we're all on the same team trying to help each other out; even if it's something we may disagree on. We're splitting hairs here - LoL - both the .357 and .45 will put a hurtin' on any badguy with proper shot placement
To be honest, when "IT" hits the fan at 2am, i'm reaching for the shotgun!
In the end we're all on the same team trying to help each other out; even if it's something we may disagree on. We're splitting hairs here - LoL - both the .357 and .45 will put a hurtin' on any badguy with proper shot placement
To be honest, when "IT" hits the fan at 2am, i'm reaching for the shotgun!
DougDubya
Member
As uncle Jeff said, the purpose of the sidearm is to let you reach your longarm, which shouldn't have been set down in the first place.
.30-06 or 12 gauge > .45 or .357.
Though, a semi-auto Thompson or a lever action .357 wouldn't be too bad either....
.30-06 or 12 gauge > .45 or .357.
Though, a semi-auto Thompson or a lever action .357 wouldn't be too bad either....
stevereno1
Member
Either!!!!
I'll get in on this one by throwing in a ringer. The 9x23 Winchester has the same ballistics as the 357 Magnum in a cartridge that easily fits autoloaders. I am shooting it out of a Star Super A, which is a Spanish 1911 clone. I get the best of both worlds. I get the ballistics of the 357 with less recoil, less muzzle flash, 8+1 capacity and faster reloads and quicker follow up shots.
OK, fire away.
OK, fire away.
DougDubya
Member
Oddball cartirdges rule.
I miss the .38 Super.
I miss the .38 Super.
DougDubya
Member
Jealousy, mav. I has it. (Sorry for the lolcat lapse.)
I like the look of the Cor-bon loadings.
(Sorry for the lolcat lapse.)I like the look of the Cor-bon loadings.
- Status
