.357 Overpenetration - Myth or Reality?

[The_Shootist]

Surprisingly, if the last few days are any indication we might have kind of a cold winter in SE Texas - I mean last Friday we had our earliest measurable snowfall in history, and there is speculation we could have more snow closer to Christmas, Global Warming ???

Anyways, with people more layered up, I'll switch up from my 642 to something a bit more potent. I'll likely go to my G19 as 9mm practice ammo is plentiful. But surprisingly enough, so is .357 ammo. Carrying my 686+ under a jacket is no worse than my G19.

I prefer 158 gr rounds in .357 as they shoot POA in my 686, but am wondering if there is a danger of overpenetration using some of the self defense loads in that weight from Buffalo Bore or Double Tap, both of which are moving 1400 fps+. Or is overpenetration more of an urban myth.

I might even just get some of BB's FBI load (which feels like a low end .357 load in my 686) and call it good.

 

[fourdollarbill]

IMO it is a MYTH of POO !!!
I hate the over penetration verbage everybody throws around and the semantics used to make it true. I like the 357 mag round, I use it, I know what is behind the bad guy before I shoot. Think about it, what is more logical? Knowing what you could hit if you miss and or "over penetrate" or having the perfect round for each situation because you know you will never miss your target. I'm not that good of a shooter so I stick with knowing whats behind the bad guy.

I never even came close to shooting anybody but I sure do practice.

 

[MCgunner]

A 158 will shoot through a deer rather easily. But, those were SWCs, not hollowpoints. Me, I'm a fan of 140 Speer JHPs, summer, winter, anytime for self defense. Might look at Hornady Critical Defense loads for your .38, too. They expand regardless of clothing, or so is the hype. It's all in the bullet. I never have been a big fan of 125 JHPs, well, not in the last 20 years. At first I bought the hype, but they're hard on guns and I never found one all THAT accurate.

Heck, I was running my route today in a T shirt. Cold? It was 47 degrees all day and I'm not even a yankee. LOL Well, I do have this insulated shirt I was wearing at first. It seemed to warm a little during the afternoon. I'm going out in the morning to the marsh duck hunting. I hope it's cold and nasty.

I'm hoping for Christmas snow again. Victoria got 12" on Cristmas eve and we got 8" in 2004. Yeah, global warming, riiiiiiight.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I get more penetration with a 9mm hp that will cycle in a Glock than I do with a good .357 hp.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Yeah, sure you do.

 

[David E]

I know what is behind the bad guy before I shoot.

Even in the dark when milliseconds count ?

 

[theotherwaldo]

Yes, I do. The 9mms that I can get to cycle reliably won't mushroom reliably, darn it! They just punch neat little holes right through.

 

[fourdollarbill]

Even in the dark when milliseconds count ?

I sure would do my best to know.
Your question has two heads. Would you shoot any caliber even in the dark when millseconds count? If your saying by going with a different caliber it is more safe then your leaving out the "what if I miss factor".

 

[Action_Can_Do]

Over penetration can happen with any cartridge. A lot depends on the bullet used.

 

[Confederate]

The beauty of the .357 is that yes, it does everything. As a manstopper, use a 125gr JHP, even if a person is wearing heavy clothing. If you want deer, use a 158 JHP; for bear use a 158 JSP or heavier. The .357 can punch through cars even using 125 JHPs and plow through tough muscle and sinhew with heavier bullets.

Back iin the late 70s, the CHP found that 158gr .357s recoiled too much and greatly overpenetrated in people. Like the .44 mag, it was too tough to recover from beteen shots and the bullets just weren't opening up.

With the right ammo the .357 is tough to beat. In apartments and condos, the gun does well with .38 JHP +P rounds and outdoors you can ramp it up to very impressive levels. You just have to choose your ammo intelligently. While I wouldn't go out looking for bears with the .357, it has been shown to be able to handle them with heavier bullets.

For stopping people, I'd go for the 125gr JHP; where more penetration, heavier loads do better. Clothing doesn't normally cause the bullets to break up (like 110gr JHPs), but the human anatomy does. I've also heard good things about the Speer 140 JHPs, but you'd have to load it.

 

[txoilman]

You should look at the .357 145 gr Silvertip. It aces the FBI tests (for what that's worth) and it has stopped the bad guys for over 25 years. Yes, the design is old, but it works. The only reason the police dropped it was to have more bullets, not better ones.

 

[Rain Dog]

Anyways, with people more layered up, I'll switch up from my 642 to something a bit more potent.

If you're switching because other people are layering up - that is, you want more penetration - that's silly. Most bullets aren't going to even think about slowing down at the prospect of winter clothing.

If you're switching because you can layer up and carry something bigger - ignore what I said, that makes perfect sense.

 

[black_powder_Rob]

man rain dog you beat me to it. just kidding....

I am seeing a lot of posters here from Texas

 

[warnerwh]

Going by the statistics from actual shootings gathered the 125gr JHP in the .357 is the handgun round to beat. One shot stops is at 96%. With this round they had a very large quantity of police records from around the country to study so the results are most likely very accurate. The heavier bullets for the.357 were significantly to substantially less effective.

The only thing more effective than the .357 125gr JHP round was a shotgun slug. The study only used torso hits where the BG was stopped with one round. These real world shootings where the target is a human are much better to study than any formulas or anything else for that matter, at least imo. There are no questions whether the various rounds worked or didn't work, no hype and no popular opinions period.

The 158gr rounds whether SWC, JHP or JSP are great to use if the guy is huge. If you have to make a frontal shot that bullet will more than likely expend the majority of it's energy on the other side of that person if they're under 400 pounds. They're not designed for personal defense rounds against humans. You can call the bullet manufacturers yourself to verify this. However I could see special circumstances where I'd want the heavy bullet.

These statistics are from the first Handgun Stopping Power studies. From what I've heard things haven't changed much in the latest book. The 125gr. 357 magnum is still tough to beat. There were rounds in the first book that were very very close to the 125gr .357 round. No doubt with newer bullets and loads that there are significantly more rounds in the over 90% class than there were when the first book was done. I don't have the new book myself so if anybody can add to this please do. I'd like to know myself.

 

[rswartsell]

I'm a dyed in the wool .357 fan, with 4" Colt Trooper Mk III when it was new, Ruger Blackhawk, S&W 686, S&W 686+ (6"), S&W Mod 27 3 1/2 ", and Colt Lawman Mk III 2", in the collection.
I'm missing a Python, a Manhurin, or a Korth in the collection.

For people (social work) it's hard to beat the FBI Remington load (125gr. SJHP). For short barrel (in either .38 spl +P or .357 magnum) it's hard to beat Speer Gold Dots 135gr. JHP. For hunting the best I have used is Buffalo Bore 180gr. LFN with a good flat metplat (up to 200gr. solids available). This is the best round I know of for effective versatility. There is very little short of Kodiak Griz that is truly beyond this round if you have the weapons for the job.

I have always thought of "upgrading" to bigger bores but trying to find the limits of this cartridge has taken me a very long time. I have recently begun the 1911, .45 ACP use that I wanted 30 years ago. At this point, hunting, including hogs, would be with my 686+ 6" with some of the excellent premium rounds that are now available (Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon). You would have to put me in Alaska to move me from the amazing .357.

In the Midwest I have taken 4 whitetail with the .357 with not a hitch (one dressed out to 180 #, a monster whitetail). I am definitely looking forward to my Kimber .45, but I know better than to expect the same versatility.

P.S. If by overpenetration you expect sheetrock to stop this round in any of it's many iterations, then yes, it overpenetrates.

 

[Gary A]

I've come to believe that the much more likely "miss" is more dangerous than the "over-penetrator". Nothing even remotely slows a miss. And, over-penetration has one plus in that it provides two holes to leak simultaneously. Of course, I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of a full-power 125 grain load, just sayin'...
The 125 is harder to control (IMO), hard on guns, hard on ears, and certainly hard on BGs.

 

[kmrcstintn]

the PA Game Commission (both salaried wardens and volunteer deputies) was utilizing 4" barreled, 6 shot .357 magnum revolvers (salaried wardens issued S&W 686's and volunteers could choose any 4" barreled, 6-shot .357 magnum revoler) up until 2005/2006 when they transitioned to Glocks chambered in .357 Sig; the .357 magnum load they used was the Winchester Silvertip 145gr jhp; might not be 'latest-n-greatest' but it will do the job...

 

[Joeywhat]

I'd bet a hard cast 158gr slug with a lot of ass behind it would penetrate a LOT.

That being said, who ever uses such a load for defense?

 

[Hizzie]

Depends on bullet type, barriers, clothing and shot placement. Shooting at my buddies farm he has a 14"thick pile of cardboard wrapped in shrink wrap. It sits outside rain or shine. It was rather wet the last time we went. Federal 357B (125gr JHP) shot through (pieces) but the jacket seperated and the bullets all fragmented. To me it was ideal performance.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I think that we've got multiple definitions of "overpenetration".

My definition is that the round penetrates beyond the typical depth of the vital organs before expanding, tumbling, or whatever the terminal energy-transfer action happens to be.

If the round penetrates more than eight inches before acting then it is relatively unlikely to create an immediately incapacitating wound.

Other folks consider overpenetration to be any round that passes entirely through the targeted creature. I don't care about that very much, as long as the round does it's job along the way.

 

[Ghost Walker]

Hmmm, let's see? Reasons for the FMJ overpenetration myth -

1. Because many combat pistol shots are clean misses.

2. Because lot's of times JHP performs just like FMJ.

3. Because the shooter broke Rule #4.

4. Because someone was standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

5. Because you weren't using a slingshot.

 

[Confederate]

A miss with a .357 125gr JHP can often be devastating to someone standing in front of it, as the fireball and blast can affect aggressive miscreants. But, really, if you're going to miss your mark, there's no point in complaining. To argue that FMJs and JHPs perform similarly is silly. That's like saying a picnic table cloth works as well as a parachute!

The 125gr JHP is admittedly a violent round, and it can be tough on some guns, but solid-frame guns and stainless steels can mitigate wear and tear. You can also shoot other ammo for recreation, so the downside of the 125gr JHPs is really not a problem. Newer technology also has made the round better with less gas cutting and muzzleblast.

 

[Ghost Walker]

...... To argue that FMJs and JHPs perform similarly is silly. That's like saying a picnic table cloth works as well as a parachute!

Hmmm, ......

(Should I tell him?)

 

[theotherwaldo]

-At lower velocities, FMJs and JHPs all too often DO perform similarly. Especially when they're not optimally designed.

I tried a few 9mm JHPs by shooting into a target made of 2" slabs of soft clay, each slab wrapped in plastic shipping wrap, then ten slabs bundled together with more shipping wrap, with an old wool jacket draped across the front. 9mm rounds fired from a Glock 26 all acted like FMJs, penetrating 12" or more with no appreciable mushrooming.

Perhaps a longer barrel would give better results, but I decided to move up to at least a .40 for short-barreled pocket-carry guns.

 

[ArmedBear]

JHPs have been designed for lower velocities, lately, for the reasons that you say.