.38 Special 158gr. Semi-Wadcutters for Home Defense

[heavyshooter]

My wife and I live in a condo and I am concerned about the potential for over penetration and the harming of a neighbor.

Will the goal of being effective without overpenetrating be accomplished if I am using Winchester .38 Special 158gr. Semi-Wadcutters? They are being fired from a 3 1/16" Ruger SP101. I believe this would be moving at 700 fps (or less) and it is a pretty soft lead. I believe it would make a clean hole and would stop inside an intruder. I also believe that it would stop (or slow down significantly) when it hits a wall.

What do you think?

 

[fireflyfather]

ANY bullet that is effective at stopping an assailant/invader is going to punch through SEVERAL internal walls in a home/condo/apartment. There are no magic bullets. FBI recommends at least 12 inches of penetration in ordinance gelatin to be an effective stopper. That's at least 3-4 internal walls, probably more. Best option here is to NOT MISS. Next best option is to set up your home so that you have one lane of fire down a hallway from your bedroom. At the end of that lane of fire, set up a backstop (bookshelf full of heavy books will not stop bullets, but will slow them down a good bit).

Those wadcutters you are talking about will do a decent job of stopping a threat, with a decent cutting edge on the nose of the bullet. That said, it's not a very powerful load, in a cartridge that's at the lower end of acceptable self-defense power. You still need to aim and be aware of your backstop.

I've done some limited penetration testing with SWC lead in a 3 1/2" .38 special. It will DEFNINITELY go through internal walls.

 

[1858rem]

could you load up very light weight HP bullets at high velocity that would act like varmint rounds an just frag? or buckshot lol

 

[pps]

Why not reconsider your weapon and go for a nice pump shot gun. I keep magnum BB bismuth (couldn't find lead or I would use it), the last 3 shots in the mag are #1 buck in case the first 3 of the bird shot don't do the trick.

 

[L-Frame]

AS said above, you aren't going to get a good round (other than maybe a magsafe or some other exotic frangible round) that won't go through walls if you miss. Pick a good .38+P hollowpoint, like a Gold Dot 135 and hit what you're aiming at. The best you can do is pick a bullet that, if you do what you're supposed to do, which is hit your target, it will do what it is supposed to do, which is stop the intruder and stay in the body.

 

[Deanimator]

Why not reconsider your weapon and go for a nice pump shot gun. I keep magnum BB bismuth (couldn't find lead or I would use it), the last 3 shots in the mag are #1 buck in case the first 3 of the bird shot don't do the trick.

I can't speak to the OP's circumstances, but many of us DON'T live in spacious homes with room to maneuver a long gun. Any non-NFA shotgun is virtually useless in my home. I might as well use a bamboo cavalry lance

As far as the "FBI" load goes, I have it in all of my .38/.357 revolvers. It's what I carry day to day in my 3" 65. It's as good as anything else and better than most.

 

[Carl Levitian]

While serving as a police officer on the Trinidad Colorado PD, we had the chance to observe a shooting with just such a round. A burgler made the mistake of entering a home where a single 30ish female school teacher lived. Her father had given her an older Smith and Wesson model 36, and it was loaded with a mild wadcutter target round. The invading criminal attempted to sexually assault the young woman, who in the struggle broke away and was able to grab her revolver from under the bed. Two rounds later at alomst contact range, the perpitrator was dead. From the ME report, it was stated that death was imediate.

Your choice should be just fine, heavyshooter.

 

[bluetopper]

That's what I'm talking about.......the 38 Spl has served our law enforcement well for 3/4 of a century and the cast lead SWC bullet is a great performer on paper or self defense applications.......just ask Jack Ruby, although I think he used a lowly lead round nose bullet.

 

[Jim Watson]

One source said that while the NYPD was in hollowpoint denial but under pressure from the union to provide something better than .38 roundnose, they used SWCs. Contrary to the popular wisdom they were no more effective on crooks.

I think it is interesting that while most Internet Expertise is for more power and more shots, that there is a strong minority in favor of target loads for self defense. I went that way for a while, about 30 years ago, but after shooting some wadcutters at various objects and media, I decided I needed more penetration, not less.

I like the old FBI soft lead hollowpoint for steel guns and load my Airweight with my few remaining Nyclad Chief's Specials. There might be something to the current generation of "short barrel" specific loads but I have not tried them.

 

[golden]

Skip the swc

NYPD used Semi Wadcutters for a while. It was supposed to be an upgrade from the dreaded Lead Round Nose round which has been responsible for so many failure to stops.

From what I have read, to get a real improvement, you should consider +P ammo.
The +P 158 grain Lead Semi Wadcutter Hollow Point has worked well for every department that has used it. It was adopted in Dade county Florida and used with success. I heard that Chicago PD also used it with the same results.

In my .38's, I prefer a lighter kicking load. I use the REMINGTON 125 grain Semi Jacketed Hollow Point load. It kicks less that the 158 grain and is very cheap if you buy it at WALMART.

If you are using a RUGER SP101 and it is chambered for .357 magnum, you might substitute the WINCHESTER .357 magnum 110 grain JHP "white box" load. This is another staple at WALMART and is cheap enough to be used for practice ammo.
Also, the 110 grain .357 magnum, while very effective, does not kick very hard. I found it easier to shot than the .38 Special-158 grain +P loads.

You might want to check it out. My agency issued this load for the last decade that we carried revolvers and I kept is in my house gun as well.

Jim

 

[earplug]

My indoor range did a short test of fancy rounds shooting through a mock dry wall and stud target.
All rounds would have caused serious injury or death after passing through the target wall. They did try Glaser, it looked sorta like a .410 shot charge on the back side.
I stick to cheap to practice and carry.

 

[fireflyfather]

Um, just for clarification, I think the OP was talking about winchester's COWBOY SEC load, not a FBI load clone. No hollowpoint cavity.

I just took a look at the bullet geometry on that winchester round, and the meplat is awfully small. If you're willing to handload, you might want to go with a keith style SWC, or even a full wadcutter, with a bit more muzzle velocity.

The reason some target and cowboy loads don't perform so well is not the bullet geometry, but the fact that they are downloaded, and don't get adequate penetration.

If you are really concerned with overpenetration, get a taser. It isn't as effective as a self-defense round, but it won't hurt your neighbors. As for me personally, I'll not bet my life on something that kills but doesn't stop, or something that incapacitates for a few seconds, then lets the assailant get back up and finish the job. Until we can get star-trek style phasers, we hve to use the tools available to us.

 

[highlander 5]

RE Glaser safety slugs Back in the 80's a jeweler in Boston,Ma shot a stick up artist with a Glaser from a .380 at close range,
when the cops arrived they wanted the shotgun the shop owner used on the perp. IIRC there's an article on this subject at the Box o' Truth.

 

[pps]

I can't speak to the OP's circumstances, but many of us DON'T live in spacious homes with room to maneuver a long gun. Any non-NFA shotgun is virtually useless in my home. I might as well use a bamboo cavalry lance

As far as the "FBI" load goes, I have it in all of my .38/.357 revolvers. It's what I carry day to day in my 3" 65. It's as good as anything else and better than most.

Nonsense. In college, I kept a Remmy pump 20" and kept it stoked with birdshot so I would minimize the odds of nailing a good guy in the adjacent apartment. It wasn't my intent to do housecleaning but rather hole up and make sure any BG gets enough holes in him to stop him should he be dumb enough to break in.

I'm not sure why you are so resentful towards those with spacious homes.

 

[Deanimator]

Nonsense. In college, I kept a Remmy pump 20" and kept it stoked with birdshot so I would minimize the odds of nailing a good guy in the adjacent apartment. It wasn't my intent to do housecleaning but rather hole up and make sure any BG gets enough holes in him to stop him should he be dumb enough to break in.

I'm not sure why you are so resentful towards those with spacious homes.

"Housecleaning"? So you're going to lock yourself in your bedroom and call the cops EVERY time you hear a loud noise? Did you consider that over time your response time from this is going to [rightfully] increase to infinity? I had a bookshelf collapse in the middle of the night. Should I have just locked myself in the bedroom (a five year old could kick the door in anyway) and called the police to have THEM find out what went boom? Of course I had no way of letting them in without finding out anyway.

As I said, a non-NFA long gun is nearly useless in my home. But I should use one regardless?

I don't care what kind of home you live in. I care what kind of home ***I*** live in. What I "resent" is somebody offering a one size fits all solution to a problem which by dint of his own lack of knowledge he is incapable of intelligently analyzing. You've never seen the OP's place, NOR mine, but you just KNOW that a shotgun is the solution. How? Because you THINK it worked for you in an entirely different place and time.

The solution to a headache MIGHT be a couple of aspirin... OR it might be brain surgery, chemotherapy and radiation. For all you know, you're telling a guy with a brain tumor the size of an egg to take a couple of Excedrin.

 

[pps]

What I "resent" is somebody offering a one size fits all solution to a problem which by dint of his own lack of knowledge he is incapable of intelligently analyzing.

Sad you resent yourself so much. I offered one ALTERNATIVE that MIGHT work for the OP. You discounted my suggestion out of hand without analysis son.

 

[cromlw]

I run Air Freedom rounds in my Home D .38

Heres some good reading
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

 

[GP100man]

hornady`s hollow based wc seated backwards would blow a nice hole you could put you`re fist in & instant imobilization to sharks we caught

GP100man

 

[Old Fuff]

During part of the year I live in an apartment with brick walls but large windows in both the bed and living room. My current house gun is a favorite 1950's Colt Detective Special loaded with 148 grain mid-range wadcutters. I am not worried about over-penetration, under-penetration, or the bullets ability to stop whatever needs to be stopped if I do my part.

Having said this, walls made of sheet-rock (2 layers) mounted on 2 x 4 studs won't stop most bullets. I know of a case where a wax bullet, propelled by nothing but a primer, went through a single layer of sheet-rock, but then was spent.

If possible, I would have the interior wall between you and the next units insolated, and then faced with 3/4" plywood. Not a perfect solution, but better then nothing.

 

[heavyshooter]

A few points of response and clarity

pps,

Deanimator is correct. I have a Mossy pump available for HD but it is a backup because I would have so much trouble getting to it in time. The trip from my front door to my bedroom is 12ft. Not much time to retrieve a shotgun. I keep it loaded but I use my .357/.38 as a means of staving the intruder off until I can get to my shotgun. I do not resent anyone's home, it just will not work well in my home. I believe that this was Deanimator’s point



“Um, just for clarification, I think the OP was talking about Winchester’s COWBOY SEC load, not a FBI load clone. No hollowpoint cavity.” – fireflyfather

This is true. On the Ruger forum Iwogean (a Ruger forum hero - legitimately) suggested .38 special wadcutters for HD. He says that they come closest to accomplishing three things, “reduced sound level, reduced wall penetration, and the ability to create a large wound channel.” The Wadcutter is rated at 705 fps from a four inch barrel. This is notably below 700 fps from a 3 incher. So I was wondering if a semi-wadcutter from a 3” barrel would be close to the wadcutter from a 4” barrel.



“hornady`s hollow based wc seated backwards would blow a nice hole you could put you`re fist in & instant imobilization to sharks we caught.” - GP100man

GP100man, you are the second person (in as many days) to suggest this. You were not in Shootin' Shop South on Saturday by any chance were you?



Basically, most people are telling me that I should not miss. If I hit my target then my neighbors are safe. I agree with this assessment. I assure you that I am going to hit my target. But I am not the only person in my home. My wife is not the marksman that I am and she may need two shots. It is not entirely certain, but I want to be careful in case she needs the second shot.

 

[Jim Watson]

“hornady`s hollow based wc seated backwards would blow a nice hole you could put you`re fist in & instant imobilization to sharks we caught.” - GP100man

GP100man, you are the second person (in as many days) to suggest this. You were not in Shootin' Shop South on Saturday by an chance were you?

I doubt he was. Somebody brings up the old reverse hollow based wadcutter about twice a month. I'd rather have a good stout factory hollowpoint, myself.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I think a standard wadcutter is just fine for home or personal protection. From a snubby they kill dillas, coons, possums quicker than any other .38 load i've ever tried from my 640. Go figure, but they work like a champ.

 

[goon]

I've found the Speer 135 grain JHP round to be a pretty sweet shooting .357 round in a snubby - gentle on me and not much blast but it should still keep most of the smack of a .357.
If you need to step it down a little maybe you might want to try Speer's .38 load with the same bullet.

As was pointed out though, most any bullet that will stop an attacker reliably will also punch right through a wall. Even the lowly .22 LR will shoot right through 5-6" of pine or zip through one car door, across the passenger compartment, and right out the other door. A .38 SWC can still penetrate interior walls and wind up somewhere you don't want it. Glaser and Magsafe rounds were designed to minimize this risk so they might be worth a look but I personally would only load a couple of those up first and back them up with a good JHP in case they don't penetrate enough to stop the attacker.

I've never tried to be sure but I'd bet that a 20 or 12 gauge load with a large enough shot size to give decent effectiveness will also shoot through a wall. You'll hear mixed reviews on this but I personally won't go under No.4 buck in a 12 gauge or No.3 in a 20 gauge for defensive use. Anything smaller than that is just taking too much of a chance on not being able to penetrate well enough to stop an attack.
You might also want to check out box-of-truth. They're not exactly scientific but they do shoot lots of stuff and at least you can get a general idea of what bullets will do.

 

[JERRY]

hollow points do a few things.

first they expend more energy on the target than a similar weight/speed non hollow points.

secondly they make a larger wound chanel than similar weight/speed non hollow points.

thridly, they reduce the chance of over penetration on a human target.


the reduction of penetration is not prefered when using sub-caliber rounds, this tends to hurt the hollow point choice in certain calibers.

nothing, and i mean nothing is going to do the job without good shot placement, caliber and bullet design be damned.

 

[jaholder1971]

Go with Speer's 135GDHP +P's and quit trying to reinvent the wheel.