.38 SPL vs. 9mm

[RevolvingGarbage]

The first time I ever fired a handgun was when I was 15. I started with a full sized SA 1911 .45ACP. It was great, lots of push, very accurate, no snappyness. Next I went to a S&W 4 inch .357 revolver, shooting .38 special S&B JSP's. It certainly felt less "powerful" than the .45. but still wast snappy. The next gun I shot was a Springfield XD in 9mm. I did good with it, but from the moment I felt those tiny bullets in my hand as I was loading the magazine, to the last unpleasantly snappy shot out of the gun, I was certain in my mind that the power scale went:
#1 .45ACP
#2 .38 special
#3 9mm

I know better now, but it seems to me that the impression of firing the different guns in different calibers, and seeing and handling the rounds themselves gave me the idea that 9mm = weak.

 

[RoostRider]

You will find some people who think anything is lacking... That being understood... everything is lacking, in some way or another...

I have carried many kinds of handguns for many years.... I did what most do.... started out big (S&W 686 .357 mag.) and worked my way down (snubbie 38)... lol...

I think my logic went like this....

If I'm going to carry, I should carry something really powerful.... why not?

Darn this thing is big, heavy and cumbersome....

Hmmmm, I can't conceal that thing today... I'll just go unarmed... (repeat often)

There must be something better to carry....

Hey, here's a much lighter, much smaller 9mm with TONS of ammo in it.... that should be as good...

Darn this thing is big, heavy and cumbersome....

I can't conceal that thing today... I guess I'll just go unarmed (repeat less often)

There must be something better....

This little .38 should do the trick....

Darn this thing is big, heavy and... you get the idea.... lol

I know I'm making compromises when I choose a 5 shot .38 snubbie to put in my belt... but I am also making compromises when I choose to lug around a Stainless 686... in my way of thinking, I make bigger and more substantial compromises with the 686, less so with the 9mm, and even less so with the .38...

The thing is, I actually don't mind carrying the .38 most of the time... most times that I don't have it on me, it's because I didn't realize I forgot to put it on (not very often, but it has happened)... I actually do mind carrying a high cap auto pretty often (I always know it's there)... I really mind being saddled down with a brick on my side and I can't even take off my overshirt for fear of someone saying "WHAT THE HELL IS THAT FOR??!!??"

The truth is that you have to play the game of diminishing returns....

In civilian life, the odds of needing a gun at all are slim, but have occurred in my life and the lives of many.

The odds of needing a really BIG gun, or one that holds large amounts of ammo are drastically slimmer... as in, I don't know anyone who has ever needed that.... ever...

You gotta make some compromises, and only you can decide what they should be... cause you are the one who has to live with them....

 

[zt77]

9mm is not "more modern" than .38 special.
I don't understand how this can be a debate at all.
9mm pressures are much higher than .38 special.
.38 special can be just about as fast as 9mm with similar weights and still be able to use heavier weights. I know I have killed small deer with both. They were dead with both cartridges and they still are today.
what's to fuss about? it's like saying ".308 vs 30-06"
revolver vs auto is personal preference.

as to the op...I've often wondered that myself. I figure those that like autos take advantage of their capabilities and get bigger/more effective bullets. with revolvers that kind of means more bulk. I understand more can be better. and bigger is certainly better. but I like revolvers and I like .38's. 5 is good and .38 lswchp is good.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Why is the 9mm assumed to be "better" just because it usually delivers more velocity. Velocity isn't everything and as a matter of fact, the added velocity is usually what many complain about with the 9mm. that's where it gets it's bad rep of over-penetration. Most people would not argue the .45 auto is a great man-stopper yet the velocity generated by a .45 Auto is often less than that of the .38 Special yet no one says the .45 Auto is a bad SD round.

The .38 Special has been around for a very long time and will continue to be around for a long time to come. Why? Because it works... I would choose the .38 Special over a 9mm every time. If I want more velocity I'll carry a .357 Magnum. (which is the more modern .38 Special)

 

[zt77]

having been shot with a .45 acp in the pelvic bone, I will be the first to argue it's ball loading is a poor "man stopper" as well as whatever "knockdown power" it has. it simply went straight through, didn't even spin me around like some people seem to think it does. heck, the hole wasn't even .45" big.....that is my take on all pistol rounds, they are only effective, and they are all just about equal terminal performance wise (though bigger is more reliably effective), with high quality hollow points going at whatever speed the particular bullet was designed to go.

 

[KBintheSLC]

the added velocity is usually what many complain about with the 9mm. that's where it gets it's bad rep of over-penetration.

I think that this notion came from the use of FMJ or antique JHP designs which suffered from gross overpenetration. Generally speaking, with modern expanding ammo, more velocity does not equate more penetration. Actually, if you compared two JHP bullets of the same weight, one moving at 900 fps, the other at 1100 fps, the faster bullet would penetrate less than the slower one. The reason is that the faster bullet will expand faster and more violently than the slow one. Its sectional density and friction will increase faster, therefore slowing the bullet faster.

I would not be surprised if my .38 penetrated a bit deeper than my 9mm using expanding ammo.

 

[Nicodemus38]

its easier to get ammunition in 38spcl that performs at lower recoil levels then you can with a 9mm. the whole semi auto platform is designed to operate at very particular pressure/recoil levels. to little and its a single shot.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

KBintheSLC,
I agree with your post. Just as the 9mm has gotten a bad rep because of ball ammo and older style bullets so did the .38 Special because of poor bullet design of older ammo. With the newly designed bullets the .38 Special will reliably expand and penetrate well even at the "lower" velocities associated with a short barrel revolver. The 9mm has also benefited from modern designed bullets as does most handgun calibers.

 

[Deanimator]

I'm no fan of light, fast handgun bullets for self-defense, so the 9x19mm has no advantage over the .38 Special for me, apart from greater ammunition capacity of 9mm handguns.

I carry both interchangeably, 158gr. LSWC-HPs in the .38/.357s and 147gr. JHP in the 9mms.

 

[Pilot]

9mm is not "more modern" than .38 special.

Yes it is. .38 Spl was a BLACK POWDER cartridge. That's why the case size/volume is so compatively large. 9MM was NEVER a black powder cartridge.

I am comfortable with both cartridges, but bottom line 9MM is ballistically superior.

 

[BushyGuy]

the .38 ,.357 and the .44 mag are obsolete, they are no match for a gang of looters in a disaster , they are normally hunting handguns, in a SHTF scenario i would choose a 9mm due to accuracy and more bullet capacity.

Bullet capacity is very important cuz its very easy to miss a moving threat or a threat that is shooting back. i am always strapped with a high capacity 9mm, i aint worried about shot placement i dont have that problem i am worried about shooting thru barriers the threat is hiding behind then shot placement or more knockdown power.

 

[KBintheSLC]

With the newly designed bullets the .38 Special will reliably expand and penetrate well even at the "lower" velocities associated with a short barrel revolver. The 9mm has also benefited from modern designed bullets as does most handgun calibers.

I agree... modern ammo has done wonders for both cartridges. Though I gotta admit, I have a thing for a good old fashioned 158g soft cast LSWCHP.

9mm is not "more modern" than .38 special.
I don't understand how this can be a debate at all.

Well... you are sort of right. The 9mm and the 38 were developed within about a year of each other... turn of the century 1901-02. However, the 38 was designed around the antiquated black powder propellant and revolver designs that were already well established at the time, where the 9mm was made for smokeless powder and the newfangled autoloading pistols.

That being said... I'll take one of each.

 

[NMGonzo]

Sleepy bedside = revolver

Daytime = both!

 

[1911Tuner]

the .38 Special doesn't reach the same velocities. Even out of a 2" barrel for each, a good 9mm is >200 fps faster than a good .38 Special.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why all this obsession over bullet speed. I know a few who take it to extremes and get in a knot over 50 fps. FIFTY FEET PER SECOND.
Hell...There's half that much variation between rounds in the same lot.

As to that...I haven't seen a 9mm yet that'll launch a 160 grain bullet at 800 fps. A 2-inch .38 Special revolver will do that with the 158 grain +P SWCHP.

 

[jfh]

When the 147-gr. 9mmP rounds first came out, I started diddlying with heavier bullets in the 9mmP cases in reloading. I chrono'd them--and, as 1911Tuner points out, none of them would run as fast a well-loaded 38 Spl with a 158 gr. bullet. (IIRC, I was even down to compressed loads of 231 with the 38 Super bullets) I did quit this foolishness, of course, and I quit reloading 9mmP because the case size / dexterity issues drove me nuts.

At the other extreme, I just built some 125-gr. LTC -10% cowboy loads for new shoot acclimation--and the powder amount (4.1 gr.) in that case was equally silly--but they did shoot reliably, at about 575 fps from a 2" barrel.

AFAICT, poster #2 has it right--it is poster bias. I also have parsed my carry needs a bit, and I now am satisfied with the notion that if I can't get the defense done with five, or use it to get to safety, I am in deeper than I can get out, and 15+1, or whatever, ain't gonna do it for me.

Of course, about the most dangerous location I am in are Target parking lots in Suburbia, these days, and I am not in bars....

Jim H.

 

[Cosmoline]

.38 Spl was a BLACK POWDER cartridge.

Sort of. Since it came out during the transitional period of the late 1890's, it was introduced with black but quickly switched to smokeless. Unlike, say, a .45 Colt, .44-40, .45-70, etc. etc., it is not a cartridge with a dual black/smokeless history, other than the very earliest production. It *can* be loaded with black, but it rose to prominence and was made famous as a SMOKELESS cartridge. That extra capacity can be used to turn it into, you guessed it, a .357 Magnum. Leaving the 9x19 in the dust behind it.

BOTH the .38 Special and the 9x19 were very modern, very revolutionary cartridges. The S&W Hand Ejector that was the special's introductory platform was absolutely cutting-edge technology, just like the Luger.

the .38 ,.357 and the .44 mag are obsolete, they are no match for a gang of looters in a disaster

Against a gang of looters shooting back? Neither is any handgun, sillywood movies aside. You'd need a rifle. Or even better a machine gun in a trench with supporting crew.

Bullet capacity is very important cuz its very easy to miss a moving threat or a threat that is shooting back.

As has been shown in countless encounters over the past few decades, having more rounds at your disposal doesn't improve accuracy. Many times cops and criminals alike have emptied high caps under your theory and hit nothing but blue sky. Plus the occasional bystander.

 

[The_Shootist]

As somebody noted above the difference is on paper pretty minimal in the ft/lbs or fps category. I'm just wondering if a well placed shot to a bad guy in self defense is going going to cause him to open his eyes wider and think "Gee its a good thing I got hit with a .38 at 800 fps vs a 9mm at 1100 fps."

 

[smoketheresfire]

The problem is your chances of making that "well placed hit" are not as high as you think. At the range I make well placed hits all day long. In a hyper adrenalized self defense scenario, your chances go way down. THAT is where capacity comes in. In my line of work (urban paramedic/firefighter) I see people shot on a semi regular basis, often by cops with lots of training. Can tell you that clips are emptied with 2-3 hits being a good result. But if you are cool enough to make your 5 shots count, more power to you. I'll take a auto all day long.

 

[jfh]

smoketheresfire: Your comments about hits by cops make sense--e.g., it's in 'the literature' that cops are typically not 'accurate'--and your explanation is likewise plausible.

However, the scenario for police--armed intervention in crime--is noticably different from civilian carry--self-defense shooting only, and only under limited circumstances. Thinking back over the various incidents, were there any of those that were strictly SD shooting? SD shooting not between two criminals, or whoever? Was there any difference in 'results' in those shootings?

Jim H.

 

[Cosmoline]

In a hyper adrenalized self defense scenario, your chances go way down. THAT is where capacity comes in.

But it's precisely the concept of capacity that leads to rapid fire and a lot of misses. With only six you have to actually aim, thus increasing your chance of a hit. Before the days of the highcap (which weren't that long ago), LEO's seemed quite capable of nailing bad guys with only a few rounds.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

In many cases high cap=spray&pray=many misses.
In many cases a good man with a revolver will hit what he shoots at.

If you really think you need a lot of ammo because even with "extensive" training it's hard to hit a moving target then you need to do different training. (IMO of course) Train well under pressure and you will fall back on your training.

 

[Deanimator]

the .38 ,.357 and the .44 mag are obsolete, they are no match for a gang of looters in a disaster

I own a Garand, an AR-15 and two sniper rifles for that kind of situation. ANY handgun (other than a Schnellfeuer or a Stechkin) would NOT be my first choice.

 

[smoketheresfire]

smoketheresfire: Your comments about hits by cops make sense--e.g., it's in 'the literature' that cops are typically not 'accurate'--and your explanation is likewise plausible.

However, the scenario for police--armed intervention in crime--is noticably different from civilian carry--self-defense shooting only, and only under limited circumstances. Thinking back over the various incidents, were there any of those that were strictly SD shooting? SD shooting not between two criminals, or whoever? Was there any difference in 'results' in those shootings?

Jim H.

Only been to one SD shooting and that was w a shotgun and wouldn't apply. Most have been criminal to criminal type and a few leo shootings sprinkled in. But as you say civilian carry is different, however it also depends on where you live. If you live in small town america, your chances of getting robbed by a group of thugs is much smaller than it would be if you lived in the city. Especially if you live in the part of the city that I do. Obviously you have to taylor your gun to your needs.

With regards to ArchAngels comments, I agree with you for the most part but most people who carry have never and will never train on anything other than a stationary piece of paper.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Funny how this whole thread inevitably evolved into a pretty standard .38 vs 9mm thread even though that isn't really what its about. Still hoping to address the anomaly in the OP.

 

[smoketheresfire]

Sorry dude. Just...so..hard...not...to...get...sucked in. Didn't mean to get off topic. I actually think your original question is a good one but I have no clue as to the answer.