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- Dec 20, 2007
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- 395
For those who appendix carry do you still go to the #2 count when drawing? I didn't think you skipped from 1 to 3 when drawing from appendix carry position but wasn't sure and wanted to clear it up. Thanks everyone,
Blackstone said:How applicable is this technique to competition shooting? It seems catered towards combat shooting, where you may need to shoot without full extension in confined spaces or close quarters encounters.
Ernest Langdon is a two time, and current, IDPA National Champion in Stock Service Pistol Division, two time IDPA Winter Nationals Champion, two time IDPA Stock Service Pistol Champion at the Steel Challenge, and the first person to win Production Class National Champion title at the 2000 USPSA Limited Nationals. He is also the first person to have high overall score at the IDPA Nationals with a Stock Service Pistol.
I recently attended a class on High Speed shooting and moving up, rotating, and pushing out measurably faster then bringing the gun to extension straight from the holster.I have always felt that the act of drawing the straight up, then rotating it, THEN pushing out to be slow and awkward. Is it just lack of repetition training? Also, is it necessary to acquire the sights before beginning the push out? I think I do a bit of 'bowling' when I draw.
The instructor of the above class has also been a World Class IPSC shooter, so I would say the techniques apply equally. He can shoot a clean Failure Drill in .5 secsHow applicable is this technique to competition shooting? It seems catered towards combat shooting, where you may need to shoot without full extension in confined spaces or close quarters encounters.
Not really...how soon we forget. Everything old really does become new again.Obviously high level competitors can teach a ton about shooting well and that carries over to any shooting situation. This tends to be outside that environment but I think it's incredibly relevant, valid material and don't know of anyone doing it justice other than SN.
Not really...how soon we forget. Everything old really does become new again.
Guns carried in the appendix position was the dominate position for carry in IPSC competition in the 70s...pre-USPSA. It was during the time when the start position was with the hands clasped in front of your chest...as opposed to the current Surrender position...and the Chapman Stance was the most common shooting platform.
The original Bruce Nelson Summer Special...which is the definitive IWB holster...was originally design for appendix carry
In the context of the draw that SN teaches, skip the 2 if, and only if, it is a ranged gunfight. It makes no sense to go backward to the 2 unless it is needed because of closing range or entanglement.
Still practice hitting the 2 from AIWB, obviously, because it is established strictly by feel/physical index points as opposed to visual reference.
ECQC is oriented toward dealing with the fight from 0-5' where the 2 is an incredibly valuable tool, but more important that sticking to the rules/numbers, is learning when and how to adapt the rules appropriately based on your situation.
Ah, I mis-understood. I was addressing the appendix carry and draw in general as opposed to in a CQB context.AIWB is definitely a hot thing now among competitors as far as I know. I wouldn't be qualified to comment on its history in competition; I was referring to the retention shooting pectoral index taught by Southnarc.
It is optimized for entangled shooting which isn't an element of any competition I'm aware of . (and it is also outside of the topic of AIWB except for questions like the OP asked)
I just had a refresher on this technique a couple of weeks ago at a CQ HS shooting class with Rudy Waldinger of DFT and we were getting hits...starting from 3' away... more along the center line. He prefers you orient more toward the center line to avoid misses from movement by either party during the entanglement.Edited to add: for those who are not following this is a photo of the 2 position, which came from some random person's ECQC after-action review. Note the group at the lower right of the IPSC target...that's where you make hits as a right-handed person using the 2 position in this way. It is optimized for weapon retention and mobility during entanglement, NOT for pinpoint accuracy...
Surely Count 3 is too early to see a sight picture. In the Gomez video, when he gets to Count 3, the gun is quite a bit under his eye.You should see the sights as soon as the gun reaches eye level in Count 3. From there, until you are at full extension, you can fire an accurate shot. Even if you wait until you are at full extension, Count 4, to press off your shot, it is still faster than trying to locate and align the sights when you gun is swung up at extension. I was twice as fast getting two shots on target in the 4 Count draw than swinging the gun up (.7 vs. 1.5 sec...and my reaction time is painfully slow)
Ah, I mis-understood. I was addressing the appendix carry and draw in general as opposed to in a CQB context.
I was first introduced to the position/technique in your picture by Michael Janich of MBC, who I understand learned it from Rex Applegate who trained the OSS and wrote Kill or Get Killed (1943) blended with techniques originated by W.E. Fairbairn who developed them in 1907-1940 while training the Shanghai Municipal Police
I just had a refresher on this technique a couple of weeks ago at a CQ HS shooting class with Rudy Waldinger of DFT and we were getting hits...starting from 3' away... more along the center line. He prefers you orient more toward the center line to avoid misses from movement by either party during the entanglement.
While he does advocate lateral movement in most training, engagements at this distance precludes it and dictates forward movement while striking with the off-hand elbow
9mmepiphany said:Ah, I mis-understood. I was addressing the appendix carry and draw in general as opposed to in a CQB context.
I was first introduced to the position/technique in your picture by Michael Janich of MBC, who I understand learned it from Rex Applegate who trained the OSS and wrote Kill or Get Killed (1943) blended with techniques originated by W.E. Fairbairn who developed them in 1907-1940 while training the Shanghai Municipal Police
9mmepiphany said:I just had a refresher on this technique a couple of weeks ago at a CQ HS shooting class with Rudy Waldinger of DFT and we were getting hits...starting from 3' away... more along the center line. He prefers you orient more toward the center line to avoid misses from movement by either party during the entanglement.
While he does advocate lateral movement in most training, engagements at this distance precludes it and dictates forward movement while striking with the off-hand elbow
You missed the part just before Count 3, that reads "as soon as the sights reach eye level in".Surely Count 3 is too early to see a sight picture. In the Gomez video, when he gets to Count 3, the gun is quite a bit under his eye.
I need to go find my airsoft gun and have a practice.