.40 and Law Enforcement

[tackleberry45]

Here is a good on I am hoping THR folks can help out with. Does anyone really know what drove over 60% (at least this is the figure I heard) of LE to go to the 40 cal? Why the Glock 23/22/27 seems to be the platform of choice? I see a lot of Sig 229s thrown into mix also. Ease of maintenance/ availability of parts? Effectiveness on the street as a potent caliber? Purely a cost issue of the mentioned pistols?

 

[piranha45]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

FBI investigation placed blame for the deaths of their agents on a perceived lack of stopping power exhibited by their 9mm service pistols. They soon began the search to adopt a more powerful caliber. Noting the difficulties of reloading a revolver while under fire, they specified that agents should be armed with semiautomatic handguns. The Smith & Wesson 1076, chambered for the powerful 10mm Auto round, was chosen as a direct result of the Miami shootout. It later proved to be too powerful, and was replaced by the .40 S&W, a reduced-power version of the 10mm Auto.

 

[trueblue1776]

it's a good compromise between 9mm and .45? It's a modern cartridge? The price was right?

 

[FieroCDSP]

Read the description header for the 40S&W in "Metallic Cartridge Reloading." Basicly, the 9mm was found to be insufficient in power (at teh time) but had quantity of ammo. The 10mm had the power and penetration, but too much recoil. The 45ACP had penty of power, good recoil, but not enough rounds in a mag (they say only 1 in 3 shots hit in a defensive shooting? That's only 2 hits in a 7-round mag). The 40S&W (some 10mm people call it short and weak) was an FBI-S&W-Winchester joint venture back in 1990 to make a round that had the pressure and velocities of a 9mm, the larger capacity capability, and almost as much stopping power as the 45ACP. They decided to shorten a 10mm case to make for a smaller grip frame and chamber, thus the 40S&W was born.

And it has so far been exactly what they wanted. That is why the FBI, police, and many carry permit holders use it.

Everyone has their own preference, though.

 

[10-Ring]

The advent of the 40 came from the FBI going to the 10mm round after the Miami shootout & then finding some it its agents not being able to handle the larger platform or the increase in perceived recoil. Why Glock? It's pretty well documented that Glock has made a big push into the LE world and it seems as tho they are succeeding on that front.

 

[DMK]

I'd think the long time LEO relationship with Smith and Wesson helped the wide adoption of 40S&W along.

Regardless of the reasons, it seems to have been a good choice. In the right gun and right ammunition choice, it's not any harder to shoot than 9mm, has almost the same capacity, fits in smaller guns and it appears to work well in the field.

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

Glocks always get serious consideration as they are usually the cheapest bid and are reliable. It's the nature of government.

.40 S&W because that's what the FBI went to and Local LE loves to follow the FBI despite all the trash they talk about them.

FBI, LAPD, and NYPD are the large trend setters in LE nationwide.

That's it in a nutshell.

 

[michiganfan]

I thought it was because I carry a G23.

 

[Coronach]

1. It is a good compromise between capacity (9mm) and stopping power (.45 ACP) while maintaining controlability. yes, I know we can all debate that until the cows come home (search for "9mm vs .45"), but that is how it is billed to the brass, and is in many ways true.

2. It got a good leg up from S&W pushing it hard, and being the functional equivalent of the 10mm FBI load.

3. Glock hopped on the bandwagon and pushed very hard. Glocks are good, solid duty pistols, Glock bends over backwards to accommodate departments, both in price and service, and this all happened about the time that S&W was either refusing to innovate, or doing it ineptly (read: "Sigma").

All of this combined to make .40 and Glock a dominant player in the market.

Mike

 

[Outlaws]

My friend just got a Glock 22 on Sunday for $500. LE discount though would put it at $350 with 3 15 round mags instead of the standard 2 mags.

At $350, there is no better value in firearms.

 

[CountGlockula]

If it's good for the boys in blue, then it's good for you know who...me.

Sorry, just trying to sound corny.

 

[Koblenz]

Another reason police prefer the .40 over 9mm is because it has better penetration against intermediate barriers, such as auto windsheilds.

 

[svtruth]

I heard

that one consideration was more women on the forces, their (generally) smaller hands had problems with large grips.

 

[Quiet]

that one consideration was more women on the forces, their (generally) smaller hands had problems with large grips.

This is also one of the reasons why some of the LE departments wanting to go to a .45 chose the .45GAP over the .45ACP.

 

[wally]

that one consideration was more women on the forces, their (generally) smaller hands had problems with large grips

This is also one of the reasons why some of the LE departments wanting to go to a .45 chose the .45GAP over the .45ACP.

I call marketing BS. Pick up a .45GAP Glock and compare it to the Springfield XD in .45ACP and the Springfield XD in .45GAP (if you can find one!). The difference is close to nil and in no way justifies a new caliber that barely can duplicate one of the most popular rounds' performance.

Unless someone can make a .45GAP gun smaller and lighter than the Kahr P45 I see no use for it, besides in sub .4" barrels I think .40S&W is generally a better choice than .45ACP due to velocity loss.

--wally.

 

[Outlaws]

I call marketing BS. Pick up a .45GAP Glock and compare it to the Springfield XD in .45ACP and the Springfield XD in .45GAP (if you can find one!). The difference is close to nil and in no way justifies a new caliber that barely can duplicate one of the most popular rounds' performance.

Unless someone can make a .45GAP gun smaller and lighter than the Kahr P45 I see no use for it, besides in sub .4" barrels I think .40S&W is generally a better choice than .45ACP due to velocity loss.

That isn't quite fair to say that. Glock developed the .45GAP so a .45 could be fired from their standard sized receiver. Any other firearm that uses .45GAP doesn't matter because it is apples and oranges.

Glock had a demand to fill, so they filled it. Just because someone else can build a smaller .45ACP doesn't mean the GAP doesn't serve a real purpose. That purpose is people who like the full sized Glock feel but wanted a larger caliber. I am still reluctant to accept the the GAP as a valid cartridge for the most part, but it wasn't a gimmick.

 

[Edmond]

My friend just got a Glock 22 on Sunday for $500. LE discount though would put it at $350 with 3 15 round mags instead of the standard 2 mags.

At $350, there is no better value in firearms.

That is a big factor. For the departments that have a large number of officers, such as NYPD, it becomes a big budget issue. For the departments where officers purchase their own firearms, it's another issue. Some officers I've known see their firearm as merely another one of their tools. They don't care what brand it is, what caliber it is or whatever. They just want it to work (which the Glock does) when they need it to and for it to be reasonably priced (which the Glock is).

A lot of decisions come down to money. I mean, could you imagine how much moaning and crying would go on if a department spend $700 on Sigs for officers and the department had a couple hundred officers or more? Compare that with Glocks, which would be a little more than half the cost and that's a big difference.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the .40. A lot of people I know who carry buy into the .40 but a lot of them also do it because they believe a bigger bullet should do a better job.

 

[mbott]

My friend just got a Glock 22 on Sunday for $500. LE discount though would put it at $350 with 3 15 round mags instead of the standard 2 mags.

Anything priced close to $350 would be the Agency price for a Glock 22 with three mags. On the other hand, Individual Officer price would be very close to $400.

--
Mike

 

[trueblue1776]

Anything priced close to $350 would be the Agency price for a Glock 22 with three mags. On the other hand, Individual Officer price would be very close to $400.

Really? There is a shop down here that sells almost the whole line up for less than $400 each, to civilians. Does that mean I get the agency price?

 

[mbott]

Really. Care to name the shop?

--
Mike

 

[trueblue1776]

Gold Mine Pawn in Daphne, Alabama.

 

[Alphazulu6]

Back on subject... The .40 cal replaced the 9mm because it has 35% more stopping power ("Angel Dust" and Crack superhuman shooting cases were dominating the headlines in the late 1980s). The 10mm was being implemented into most LEO agencies when the FBI dropped it from the list because of ammunition cost and the need for underpowered 10mm casings...which did not make any sense to anyone as to why they went with a BIG underpowered casing. So they ditched it and went with the .40 and all of the LEO departments did as well. Most LEO's got to buy their 10mm GLocks outright so I guess indirectly they benefited as well.

As far as the Glock platform.. #1 its a superb firearm and #2 Glock (as well as Sig) cater directly to them. More so than any other manufacturer which is a big reason why many departments carry either or.

Good Luck.

 

[Outlaws]

Anything priced close to $350 would be the Agency price for a Glock 22 with three mags. On the other hand, Individual Officer price would be very close to $400.

As much as I hat Scottsdale Gun Club, $350 is what they sell them to first responders for. Glock sells them to the store for $150 less than the those destine for civilians.

Now as to what a city police force buy would cost, I don't know. Cheaper or the same price, its a good deal.

Really? There is a shop down here that sells almost the whole line up for less than $400 each, to civilians. Does that mean I get the agency price?

That I would like to see. The cheapest I have found locally is $485 + tax.

 

[Wayne G.]

Compromise. Capacity less than 9 but more than 45. Penetration/Expansion more than 9 but less than 45.

Sounds to me like a middle-of-the-road solution.

 

[isp2605]

A lot of decisions come down to money. I mean, could you imagine how much moaning and crying would go on if a department spend $700 on Sigs for officers and the department had a couple hundred officers or more? Compare that with Glocks, which would be a little more than half the cost and that's a big difference.

Actually the price difference is about 4 times as much for Sigs.
I was commanding our R&D when we went to Glocks. We tested 15 different makes and models over a period of about 1 yr. When we finished Sig came out #1 followed closely by S&W and Glock. We asked for bids from the top 3. We were buying 2500 guns and turning in our 3rd gen S&W. We also asked to be included in the bid new holsters, 750 rds training ammo for every sworn officer, and 1 yrs worth of duty ammo which would also be used for quarterly training, qualifications, and carry. Glock came in at just over $1/4 mil. S&W came in at double Glock's price. SIG came in at over $1 mil. With over $750,000 price difference between SIG and Glock it's easy to see which gun got the bid.