45 Colt "Ruger" Trailboss loads

[lagerratrobe]

Hi All,

I'm about to start loading some 45 Colt with Trailboss and am finding the load data from Hodgdon to be a real PITA. With a 200 grn RNFP bullet, the max data I can find on the Hodgdon reloading site is "6.5 grns = 855 FPS at 11,000 psi". Great, but what if I want to load hotter than that? I click on the "45 Ruger/TC only" section and find that Trailboss isn't listed as a powder choice.

Does anyone here have pressure data for Trailboss in 45 colt that goes up beyond the 14,000 psi SAAMI limit? I'd like it for both 200 and 250 grain bullets.

NOTE: It's not that I'm looking explicitly to make hot loads with Trailboss, I'd just like to try a wide range of loads with that powder in 45 Colt and I can't find any data. I'd like to go up to 8 grns and back to see what works best for me.

Thanks.

 

[Rule3]

Probably because Trailboss was designed for light Cowboy Shooting loads with lead bullets. It was not designed for max heavy duty loads and should never be compressed.

If it is not listed there is usually a reason for that. You need to seek out a different powder.

 

[Hanshi]

I have only one .45Colt load; a 245 to 260 grain cast bullet over 18 grains of 2400. I use it on everything including small game.

Added Mod Note: This is over standard .45 Colt pressures to be used in guns that can handle it. Do your research.

Like your Sig line.

 

[jmorris]

Great, but what if I want to load hotter than that?

You picked the wrong powder for "hot" loads. You are going to want something slower.

 

[GBExpat]

Reloading with Trailboss is approached a bit differently.

First, you should be careful to avoid compressing Trailboss. I think that doing so may result in pressure spikes but I could not get a straight answer from the MFR.

Second, you should use it only with lead bullets.

Three, considering the type of bullet you wish to use, figure out where the base of that type of bullet will be once seated in the cartridge (to avoid compression) ... then fill the case to that point with Trailboss and weigh the propellant. That amount, for that bullet, represents your 100% load.

Four, for a Starting Load use 70% of the measure that you determined in Step Three and work up.

The above is a summary of Hodgdon's directions ...

Even a 100% load is not going to cause an overpressure issue for you in a .45Colt.

EDIT:

BTW, I have experience with Trailboss having worked with it extensively to develop loads for .32-20 and .44spc.

 

[RealGun]

Hi All,

I'm about to start loading some 45 Colt with Trailboss and am finding the load data from Hodgdon to be a real PITA. With a 200 grn RNFP bullet, the max data I can find on the Hodgdon reloading site is "6.5 grns = 855 FPS at 11,000 psi". Great, but what if I want to load hotter than that? I click on the "45 Ruger/TC only" section and find that Trailboss isn't listed as a powder choice.

Does anyone here have pressure data for Trailboss in 45 colt that goes up beyond the 14,000 psi SAAMI limit? I'd like it for both 200 and 250 grain bullets.

NOTE: It's not that I'm looking explicitly to make hot loads with Trailboss, I'd just like to try a wide range of loads with that powder in 45 Colt and I can't find any data. I'd like to go up to 8 grns and back to see what works best for me.

Thanks.

That bullet weight would require significantly more powder volume for decent performance. Trailboss is specific to shooting 250-260 grain lead bullets, duplicating black powder volume. Even at that bullet weight I choose 5.6 gr rather than the 5.8 max for SAAMI standard pressure loads for my Colt SAA clone. I wouldn't look for the answer you like but rather pick a combination supported by credible reloading sources.

Not always true, but I no longer buy bullets without knowing exactly what I will do with them.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You can not get enough Trail Boss in the cast to deliver what you're looking for. Please don't try because if you compress the powder pressure spikes can and will happen like said above. Also like said above, Trail Boss was developed for use as a Cowboy Action powder and for use in large rifle cartridges originally loaded with Black Powder. You will need a different powder without doubt.

I have used a lot if powders in the 45 Colt and most did a great job. My current favorite is HS-6. I think you will like it if you give it a try.

 

[midland man]

I use 6.8gr greendot with a 250gr lead bullet in my 45 colt works very well!

 

[Bullseye]

I just loaded a couple hundred with powder coated cast RNFP 45 colt cartridges with Trail Boss.
The data was 5.5 starting and 6.5 max. I loaded mine for plinking at one batch 5.5 and another at 5.8 gr.
The velocity was not all that big of a deal different at max so I wouldn't see much point in even going there. My loads are for Uberti cattleman, a 1873 sporting rifle and a conversion cylinder in a 1858 Rem Pietta.
With a Ruger Vaquero I suppose you could go max but that's your call.

 

[stoky]

I've shot a lot of 225gr Pb .45LCs over 6.0gr of Trail Boss.
I'd use a different powder if I was after something hotter.

 

[lagerratrobe]

Thanks for all of you who sent hard data based on their experience with this powder. Here are replies to concerns raised by the others.

• Trailboss was not designed for max heavy duty loads. If it is not listed there is usually a reason for that. You need to seek out a different powder. [That must be a caliber-specific reason because Hodgdon lists a 9 grn Trailboss load for .454 Casull that clocks at 1011 fps and 19300 CUP. Certainly seems like the powder is capable of it. And yes, I realize that the case volume is slightly different between these calibers.]
• I have only one .45Colt load; a 245 to 260 grain cast bullet over 18 grains of 2400. [I appreciate the info, but I'm not interested in using another powder yet.]
• Don't compress TB. [I wasn't intending to. The links I included in my question already made that clear to me, thanks.]
• Only use lead with TB. [That's the only bullet type I shoot.]
• The whole 70%-to-Max-load thing. [This is the crux of my problem. I can easily fit 10 grains of TB in my cases without compression. 70% of that is still wayyy higher than the max loads listed by Hodgdon for this caliber, and yet I keep seeing the reassurance that, "You can't overload with Trailboss." I refer you to the 454 Casull numbers above because it sure seems like you can.]
• Buy the right bullet weight to get higher performance. [Bingo, yes I should have bought 250 grain bullets, but here I am with 460 of the lighweight suckers and I'm going to make them work.]

What I'd like to see is FPS and pressure data for the magical IMR "Max and 70%-of-Max" for 45 Colt with various bullet weights. Failing that, I'd love anecdotal testimony from people who shoot Trailboss reloads for 45 Colt which they have developed using this "70%-of-max to max" formula sucessfully and what that ended up being in grains of powder.

Regarding the lack of good data, here's my assumption. The 45 Colt is notorious for its 14k SAAMI pressure rating which is necessitated by the age of the cartridge and the weakness of the early weapons that chamber it. Because of this rating for the cartridge, powder mfgs don't like to list data which shows pressures higher than 12k rating unless they couch it as "Ruger only". In my case, I think Hodgdon either got lazy, or their slick "reloading center" web page somehow got made with an omission, or they decided that for some liability reason they would shy away from listing any 45 Colt loads with Trailboss that exceed 12k psi.

I think I will start with 6.4 grains of Trailboss under that 200 grain bullet an see what that gives me for a starting point.

Thank you and best wishes.

 

[GBExpat]

Good luck with that.

FWIW, I did do a little work with Trailboss and .44mag.

6.5gr of Trailboss propelled a 250gr cast at ~715fps. The "100%" of that case & bullet is 7.3gr.

In that string I tested 5.9 thru 6.5 in .2gr steps, each of which increased the avg by 5-10fps, so I realized that 800fps was probably not possible and moved on to other things.

 

[Rule3]

Thanks for all of you who sent hard data based on their experience with this powder. Here are replies to concerns raised by the others.

• Trailboss was not designed for max heavy duty loads. If it is not listed there is usually a reason for that. You need to seek out a different powder. [That must be a caliber-specific reason because Hodgdon lists a 9 grn Trailboss load for .454 Casull that clocks at 1011 fps and 19300 CUP. Certainly seems like the powder is capable of it. And yes, I realize that the case volume is slightly different between these calibers.]
• I have only one .45Colt load; a 245 to 260 grain cast bullet over 18 grains of 2400. [I appreciate the info, but I'm not interested in using another powder yet.]
• Don't compress TB. [I wasn't intending to. The links I included in my question already made that clear to me, thanks.]
• Only use lead with TB. [That's the only bullet type I shoot.]
• The whole 70%-to-Max-load thing. [This is the crux of my problem. I can easily fit 10 grains of TB in my cases without compression. 70% of that is still wayyy higher than the max loads listed by Hodgdon for this caliber, and yet I keep seeing the reassurance that, "You can't overload with Trailboss." I refer you to the 454 Casull numbers above because it sure seems like you can.]
• Buy the right bullet weight to get higher performance. [Bingo, yes I should have bought 250 grain bullets, but here I am with 460 of the lighweight suckers and I'm going to make them work.]

What I'd like to see is FPS and pressure data for the magical IMR "Max and 70%-of-Max" for 45 Colt with various bullet weights. Failing that, I'd love anecdotal testimony from people who shoot Trailboss reloads for 45 Colt which they have developed using this "70%-of-max to max" formula sucessfully and what that ended up being in grains of powder.

Regarding the lack of good data, here's my assumption. The 45 Colt is notorious for its 14k SAAMI pressure rating which is necessitated by the age of the cartridge and the weakness of the early weapons that chamber it. Because of this rating for the cartridge, powder mfgs don't like to list data which shows pressures higher than 12k rating unless they couch it as "Ruger only". In my case, I think Hodgdon either got lazy, or their slick "reloading center" web page somehow got made with an omission, or they decided that for some liability reason they would shy away from listing any 45 Colt loads with Trailboss that exceed 12k psi.

I think I will start with 6.4 grains of Trailboss under that 200 grain bullet an see what that gives me for a starting point.

Thank you and best wishes.

Well as you are so knowledgeable on the product why ask a question?? You are the reloader and can do anything you want.

If you look at the description for it is is this:

http://www.hodgdon.com/trail-boss/

"Trail Boss was designed specifically for low-velocity lead bullets suitable for Cowboy Action shooting."


It is primarily a pistol powder but has some application in rifles.
Trail Boss is based on new technology that allows very-high loading density, good flow through powder measures, stability in severe temperature variation, and, most importantly, additional safety to the handloader.

Available in 9 oz. and 5 lb. containers.



You can also look at the relative burn rate of the powder and find it it is pretty fast. As a with most powders fast ones are not the best choice for high pressure rounds (meaning Ruger only 45 Colt )

But don't trust the internet, call Hodgdon
tomorrow they are open early Mon through Thursday and discuss it with them.

 

[suemarkp]

I looked at all my load data for 45 Colt and trailboss. There is a max listed load intended for rifles that says 6.5grains of trailboss with a 225 grain cast bullet for 932 fps. Pressure is not listed. OAL was 1.60 and the primer was a CCI 300.

Saw another set of loads for a redhawk which listed 5.9 grains with a 250gr bullet. OAL was 1.57, primer was WLP, and pressure was 13,200 CUP. A 255gr load was also listed with 5.8gr of trailboss, same OAL and primer, and 13,500 CUP.

Finally, one more with 255gr LFP with 6.5 grains of trailboss, OAL was not listed, primer was CCI 300. This was an outlier, as all the others were suggesting a max of around 5.6 to 5.8gr.

 

[jmorris]

I think I will start with 6.4 grains of Trailboss under that 200 grain bullet an see what that gives me for a starting point.

I think one reason books have seemed to become more conservative on load data are because of people like yourself.

They print "starting" loads and people act like they are trying to put training wheels on their Harley. At some point they learn there are differences in firearms or they think "well a 200 grain bullet is a 200 grain bullet, right?" and start swapping components around, again raising pressures.

You haven't even started reloading and in a dozen posts have had answers from folks with more than 100 years combined reloading experience. We can't tell you what to do but believe it or not, it's easier to start at the beginning than repair damage caused by a kaboom.

 

[jmorris]

With a 200 grn RNFP bullet, the max data I can find on the Hodgdon reloading site is "6.5 grns = 855 FPS at 11,000 psi".

If that were the only data they gave you and you followed the -10% rule, that would put you at a 5.8gn starting load

Great, but what if I want to load hotter than that?

You do so at your own risk, because in their testing they have found it undesirable for what ever reason. That reason also wouldn't be to make more money as I imagine TB is one of their more profitable powders as the 9oz jug it comes in costs as much as a pound of other powders.

I click on the "45 Ruger/TC only" section and find that Trailboss isn't listed as a powder choice.

Because most people don't load to gain maximum pressure numbers. If they did they would just weld up the end of the barrel. Instead many want higher velocities and quite often the slower burning powders give them higher velocities at the same peak pressure as the faster powders. Higher speed, more power, less wear and tear on equipment, win, win, win.

 

[RealGun]

Keep in mind that when you blow up a gun, the damage could be to more than the gun. I doubt that you are equipped to second guess professional load data or to certify pressure levels on your own. Even those with enough background to probe the limits intuitively would use a slower burning powder. It is always discouraging to see someone ask a question and then ignore any information that was not the answer they wanted.

 

[7mmb]

I'm about to start loading some 45 Colt with Trailboss and am finding the load data from Hodgdon to be a real PITA. With a 200 grn RNFP bullet, the max data I can find on the Hodgdon reloading site is "6.5 grns = 855 FPS at 11,000 psi". Great, but what if I want to load hotter than that?

If you want to load hotter than that get another powder. Pressure increases are not linear with increases in charge weight. You could easily have a pressure excursion if loaded much over max, especially with a fast powder like Trailboss. The 19,300 CUP of the published 454 Casull load is the equivalent of only about 11,000 psi. Trailboss isn't used in Ruger-only 45 Colt for a very good reason, it is not appropriate nor safe for that application, any more than H4350 is. Stick to published data. If your components on hand don't fit your handloading goals get different components. If you want to use the components you already have use them within the parameters they were designed for. Don't try to make what you have work by going off the map. Don't try to put a square peg in a round hole. Nothing good can come of it.
.

 

[lagerratrobe]

I'll try one last time and I'll keep it simple. Reconcile for me the published recommendation for developing min/max loads using the 70% of uncompressed case volume, vesus the published load table data for that powder and caliber.

And before you castigate me any further, 6.5 grains is the published max in my Lee load tables for this powder and bullet.

Have a nice day and best wishes.

 

[7mmb]

Reconcile for me the published recommendation for developing min/max loads using the 70% of uncompressed case volume, vesus the published load table data for that powder and caliber.

That is a rough rule of thumb and does not apply to every powder. Trailboss is one of those powders. Trailboss is very high volume for weight and is a wholly unique powder type. It is designed to fill high volume cases that were originally designed for black powder. It is not at all similar in this regard to other smokeless powders. Therefore, this rule does not apply to Trailboss. Trailboss was made for one application only, to fill high volume revolver cases to prevent double charging while safely delivering black powder ballistics. If this is not the performance you want you will need to use a different powder.

 

[FROGO207]

The answer is actually quite simple if you want to see it. They are giving you a FORMULA to use that is SAFE with a lead bullet in a round that they have not yet tested Trail Boss in. They may never test it in some cases as virtually nobody loads for that particular round using lead bullets at low velocity. They are actually quite specific about that in the instructions. It is possible that the data they provided shows the MAX load that worked safely and WAS ACCURATE with that combo of components and firearm they actually tested the load with.
FWIW Lee does not do their own pressure testing, they rely on older published data or get permission for the newer data from whomever originally tested it.

 

[Walkalong]

You're getting off to a rough start lagerratrobe. You asked a question, got some good answers, then took everyone to task about them. They were only trying to be helpful. Your post could come across as careless IMHO, not mentioning what pistol you have (Can it take "Ruger Only" loads?), only what if I want to go over standard .45 Colt pressure, and asking about doing it with a powder that isn't really suited to "Ruger Only" loads.

You have inferred that Hodgdon might be lazy because they don't have the data you want. Your second guess is more like it, they only list standard pressure data.

There are three .45 Colt pressure levels for the reloader. Standard, N Frame (And New Vaquero?), & Ruger Only meant for Blackhawks and Redhawks. Speer has a Ruger Only section for .45 Colt. No powder company or bullet maker I know has it for the midrange stuff other than handloaders. We have some .45 Colt aficionados here who load all three ranges. Maybe they'll chime in.Either way, the reloader takes responsibility when they load over standard .45 Colt pressure, and that's fine.

I'll try one last time and I'll keep it simple.

That is simply not nice and not a good way to encourage people to help.

What pistol are you going to shoot these in? I just checked and it looks like I could fit 8.5 to 9.0 Grs of Trail Boss under a 240 gr bullet, so I would assume a little bit more with a 200 Gr. You say you can fit 10.0 Grs without compression, and that sounds doable.

Trail Boss doesn't play that well with plated or jacketed compared to lead, which it loves, so I haven't tried a lot of things in .45 Colt with it. What type is your 200 Gr bullet? Or did I miss that?

If you have a pistol that can handle Ruger Only loads there is nothing stopping you from loading to 100% fill density and trying it. Your house, your risk.

TB is a fast powder, and medium to slow powders are much better suited to the 2nd and 3rd level .45 Colt loads.

 

[dh1633pm]

You may want to try another powder like already suggested. I use Trail boss for lead in 45 Colt and it works well. Even tried it for 7x57 again with lead and with 45-70. I wouldn't consider it for anything that I wanted a little oomph out of.

 

[RealGun]

The 454 Casull case is 1/10 inch longer. I wouldn't hang your hat on applying that data to 45 Colt. Also keep in mind in terms of powder volume in the data that 454 Casull guns are rated W-A-Y higher in strength than 45 Colt guns intended for SAAMI standard pressure levels.

I expect powder companies are not providing the data you want simply because they would not recommend it, especially in light of far better choices in their line ups.

Maybe we could crowd-fund a pound of a better powder choice for you.

 

[lagerratrobe]

I thank the last couple posters who answered and confirmed my questions. The fact that there is a generic method to develop a load for an unknown cartridge is interesting. That it is for "untested" cartridges only is... surprising. The fact that this method would likely give VERY much higher pressures than SAAMI recommended for 45 Colt is also interesting. I still would prefer to see actual FPS and CUPS values derived from that method, just for informational purposes. I also thank the moderator for actually going out to the shop and measuring the powder load that they got using the min max method. It's clear that using the IMR "max" charge as derived from case volume is NOT the way to go with this cartridge. An informative description of this problem can be found here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ex.php/t-71243.html+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Best wishes.