Iron Sight
Member
What is the difference between a 45 Super and 45 ACP?
Thank you
Thank you
45 Super
- Thread starter Iron Sight
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Steve Koski
Member
Clark
Member
The set of three real gun articles on 45 Super blew me away in late 1999 early 2000.
http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm
http://www.realguns.com/archives/021.htm
http://www.realguns.com/archives/022.htm
I think the author has a background in optics, and guns are just a hobby, but he brings to the table a technical point of view, instead of the usual consumer pap doled out by gun magazines.
http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm
http://www.realguns.com/archives/021.htm
http://www.realguns.com/archives/022.htm
I think the author has a background in optics, and guns are just a hobby, but he brings to the table a technical point of view, instead of the usual consumer pap doled out by gun magazines.
Steve Koski
Member
Clark, is that you, the original?
Big Boomer
Member
I converted my colt to shoot 45 Super and man can you tell that it's alive. It truly wakes up the gun!
You can definitely feel the power difference between +p and the super. My 1911 actually "bites" a little bit now even with a nice beaver tail.
Things I did to mod:
1. replaced firing pin and spring to extra heavy
2. replaced firing pin stop with EGW flat bottom (requires fitting) but nothing you can't do yourself (this changes the timing on the gun and brings it back to good old John moses brownings original specs)
3. Replaced springs in mags with +5% ones from wolf
4. replaced recoil spring to 24# (you might need to play with these for your individual gun)
5. added full length guide rod to add some weight to the front to reduce recoil
All and all its not that expensive. You really just need the EGW stop, and recoil spring replacement but I figured it wouldn't hurt to just be safe.
When reloading just make sure you check EACH headstamp before loading it to make sure it is in fact a super brass. You don't want to load those charges in a normal brass as you will have a KB.
In addition, you must be VERY careful not to mix them by accident with any other rounds. Marking them with a black felt time marker is preferable. I put a label on mine that says "DANGER DO NOT USE! OVERCHARGED AMMO!"
That usually keeps anyone from accidentally grabbing the wrong box of ammo and feeding it into one of my other 45's
You really need to reload for this though as commercial ammo is pretty expensive.
You can definitely feel the power difference between +p and the super. My 1911 actually "bites" a little bit now even with a nice beaver tail.
Things I did to mod:
1. replaced firing pin and spring to extra heavy
2. replaced firing pin stop with EGW flat bottom (requires fitting) but nothing you can't do yourself (this changes the timing on the gun and brings it back to good old John moses brownings original specs)
3. Replaced springs in mags with +5% ones from wolf
4. replaced recoil spring to 24# (you might need to play with these for your individual gun)
5. added full length guide rod to add some weight to the front to reduce recoil
All and all its not that expensive. You really just need the EGW stop, and recoil spring replacement but I figured it wouldn't hurt to just be safe.
When reloading just make sure you check EACH headstamp before loading it to make sure it is in fact a super brass. You don't want to load those charges in a normal brass as you will have a KB.
In addition, you must be VERY careful not to mix them by accident with any other rounds. Marking them with a black felt time marker is preferable. I put a label on mine that says "DANGER DO NOT USE! OVERCHARGED AMMO!"
That usually keeps anyone from accidentally grabbing the wrong box of ammo and feeding it into one of my other 45's
You really need to reload for this though as commercial ammo is pretty expensive.
Clark
Member
In 1951 my mother named me after Clark Gable.
HE was the original.
If you are asking if I am the guy with thousands of hot handloading posts at Glocktalk, but banned for the last couple years for criticizing Massad Ayoob, that's me.
Steve Koski
Member
Yeah, that's you!
What other reloading/gun forums do you like?
Koski
What other reloading/gun forums do you like?
Koski
BigSlick
Member
I loved that thread.
It was informational to say the least
It was informational to say the least
Steve Koski
Member
Anyone got a copy of it?
SSN Vet
Member
I've been researching 10 mm and just discovered this little 2-1/2 year old thread.... with a very interesting link to a series of articles @ Real Guns....
very interesting read.
I just experimented with my first box of Rem 185gr. +P in my Commander and found it to be an eye opening experience with the stock 18# springs.
Going to have to get heavier springs for that ammo.
Any body out there loading .45 Super brass for +P+ type loads with stiff recoil springs??
I'm not exactly a "hammer head" trying to overload every gun I own, but I found the Real Guns article connected a lot of the dots for me personally... both reloading and 1911 tuning wise.
So I'm resurecting the thread for any body else out there who missed it the first time around
very interesting read.
I just experimented with my first box of Rem 185gr. +P in my Commander and found it to be an eye opening experience with the stock 18# springs.
Going to have to get heavier springs for that ammo.
Any body out there loading .45 Super brass for +P+ type loads with stiff recoil springs??
I'm not exactly a "hammer head" trying to overload every gun I own, but I found the Real Guns article connected a lot of the dots for me personally... both reloading and 1911 tuning wise.
So I'm resurecting the thread for any body else out there who missed it the first time around
Clark
Member
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
When I read three articles on that in early 2000 I was really impressed and inspired.
45 super I at realguns
45 super II at realguns
45 super III at realguns
I bought a 19 ounce Republic arms Patriot 45 acp pistol and worked up to 460 Rowland loads and beyond in May of 2000.
That pistol was designed by Nehemia Sirkis.
The Patriot Arms factory was two partners in a business park in CA. They send me parts and encouragement, even though their manual said "no +P" ammo.
The guys that sent me free spare parts during the work up are out of it. They sold the rights to Cobra Arms, who now call the product the "Patriot 45".
When my father designed guns, Renton Coil Springs would build him any prototype for free with the ends "closed and ground". He never specified the force. He said that would be double dimensioning. I have to buy Wolff Gunmsith pak #14 and cut to length. I measure force by hanging a weight from a trigger gaurd
Joe D'Alessandro, who writes realguns, may find some difference in 45acp brass any brand vs 45 Super brass Starline brand, but I can't verify with either cross section or overloading in 45acp 98 Mauser rifle [I built] until brass failure. In a gun culture of simple minded consumers and the publishing erroneous folklore, Joe stands out as someone who can think and has a sense of humor.
I talked to the man at Starline, and he says there is a heat treat difference in 45acp brass vs 45 Super and 460 Rowland brass, but the case head dimensions are the same as 45 acp. He says that the +P brass has different dimensions and is meant for pistols with poor case support.
I can't verify that 45 Super brass is any stronger than any brand 45acp brass. They are the same strength per my experiments to within less than 1% loading.
What the Starline man says about the +P brass, I can verify with volume, weight, cross section, and shooting in poor case support pistols.
0) 45 acp....................... 185 gr 7.6 gr AA#5 jams w/stock Patriot spring
1) 45 acp........................185 gr 10.2 gr AA#5 1100 fps 18,000psi
2) 45 acp +P...................185 gr 10.8 gr AA#5 1200 fps 21,700 psi
3) 45 Super.....................185 gr 12.4 gr AA#5 1312 fps 28,000 cup
4) 460 Rowland............... 185 gr 14.5 gr AA#5 1500 fps 38,800 cup
5) Easy extraction ...........185 gr 15.0 gr AA#5 *rifle
6) Case starts to stretch...185 gr 15.2 gr AA#5 *rifle
7) difficult extraction ........185 gr 16.0 gr AA#5 *rifle
8) primer falls out ............185 gr 16.5 gr AA#5 *rifle
So now I have (5) 45acp chambered guns, and all are capable of different loads. They are limited by either:
case bulge
recoil
primer falling out
I have never found any special use for 45 Super brass. The 45acp mixed once fired brass is just as good and holds just as much for well supported chambers. The poorly supported chamber pistols can work up to more power with Starline +P 45acp brass, with it's thicker walls.
When I read three articles on that in early 2000 I was really impressed and inspired.
45 super I at realguns
45 super II at realguns
45 super III at realguns
I bought a 19 ounce Republic arms Patriot 45 acp pistol and worked up to 460 Rowland loads and beyond in May of 2000.
That pistol was designed by Nehemia Sirkis.
The Patriot Arms factory was two partners in a business park in CA. They send me parts and encouragement, even though their manual said "no +P" ammo.
The guys that sent me free spare parts during the work up are out of it. They sold the rights to Cobra Arms, who now call the product the "Patriot 45".
When my father designed guns, Renton Coil Springs would build him any prototype for free with the ends "closed and ground". He never specified the force. He said that would be double dimensioning. I have to buy Wolff Gunmsith pak #14 and cut to length. I measure force by hanging a weight from a trigger gaurd
Joe D'Alessandro, who writes realguns, may find some difference in 45acp brass any brand vs 45 Super brass Starline brand, but I can't verify with either cross section or overloading in 45acp 98 Mauser rifle [I built] until brass failure. In a gun culture of simple minded consumers and the publishing erroneous folklore, Joe stands out as someone who can think and has a sense of humor.
I talked to the man at Starline, and he says there is a heat treat difference in 45acp brass vs 45 Super and 460 Rowland brass, but the case head dimensions are the same as 45 acp. He says that the +P brass has different dimensions and is meant for pistols with poor case support.
I can't verify that 45 Super brass is any stronger than any brand 45acp brass. They are the same strength per my experiments to within less than 1% loading.
What the Starline man says about the +P brass, I can verify with volume, weight, cross section, and shooting in poor case support pistols.
0) 45 acp....................... 185 gr 7.6 gr AA#5 jams w/stock Patriot spring
1) 45 acp........................185 gr 10.2 gr AA#5 1100 fps 18,000psi
2) 45 acp +P...................185 gr 10.8 gr AA#5 1200 fps 21,700 psi
3) 45 Super.....................185 gr 12.4 gr AA#5 1312 fps 28,000 cup
4) 460 Rowland............... 185 gr 14.5 gr AA#5 1500 fps 38,800 cup
5) Easy extraction ...........185 gr 15.0 gr AA#5 *rifle
6) Case starts to stretch...185 gr 15.2 gr AA#5 *rifle
7) difficult extraction ........185 gr 16.0 gr AA#5 *rifle
8) primer falls out ............185 gr 16.5 gr AA#5 *rifle
So now I have (5) 45acp chambered guns, and all are capable of different loads. They are limited by either:
case bulge
recoil
primer falling out
I have never found any special use for 45 Super brass. The 45acp mixed once fired brass is just as good and holds just as much for well supported chambers. The poorly supported chamber pistols can work up to more power with Starline +P 45acp brass, with it's thicker walls.
I converted my full size kimber to 45 super and use starline brass. I love shooting the pistol this way. It is like having a 44mag auto. I get around 1300fps with 185 hp. It shoots so much flatter. I actually shoot the metal gong at the rifle range (150 yds) with it. The pistol still shoots regular loads of 45. Only drawback is the super stiff spring. 800x is the best powder to use as far as velocity without pressure signs is concerned. I would work loads up carefully.
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