454 casull accuracy in .460S@W rifle

[bogus mcall]

after doing some research, i found that Burris makes a quad scope. It will allow 4 different zero's. I was designed for the Sako Quad rife. That rifle u can change out 4 different barrels.And have a zero for each caliber. Say's it will also work for different loads of the same caliber.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

200grn FACTORY loads

1. 2863 fps
2. 2807
3. 2847
4. 2849
5. 2830

Krochus, the man is talking about a bear gun, and you're talking about bullets with a SD worse than a thin dime, which wouldn't penetrate an inch & half of bear hide, but just blow a big surface hole. Get real. You're doing the man a huge disservice. Pistol rounds, now matter how powerful, and no matter how fast you can push the gimmicky flying dime loads made up to sell them to suckers, are horrible performers compared to RIFLE rounds with RIFLE bullets.

He didn't say anything about plinking. He is not limited to pistol rounds in other states. He could get a .30-06 fercripessake. Sure a .45-70 in level 2 or 3 loadings is on the order of 5-10 times of a better choice than a .460 for bear due to using RIFLE bullets, but a .30-06 is even better than .45-70, because it gives you more range as well as all the killing power and good SD/penetration/bullet selection.

Frankly, reaming that gun to .460 is about the stupidest idea that you could come up with in that particular situation - really, krochus, c'mon.... Get a T/C Venture in .270, .30-06, etc., for other states if you're on a budget and have a 2nd nice rifle, and don't mess up a nice No. 1 with some harebrained idea. Believe me, I've had my share of harebrained ideas, so now I'm pretty good at spotting them (ya know, takes a thief to know a thief kind of thing).

For criminy's sake, PM me for actual GOOD info, bogus mccall. Keep listening to nonsense if you like wasting money and learning things the hard way.

.454 casull makes sense if it's the bigget round you can shoot in that state. But to ream to something that's NOT legal to hunt with in your home state, at a moderately high cost, as well as a slight risk of screwing it up, just in order to:

(a) Actually CREATE a risk of having the ringing issue causing you to blow yourself up with .460, (which is a real risk because if you're a legal hunter, we KNOW that you'll be shooting a LOT of .454 in that gun, which is what creates the ring - Do NOT trifle with 65K psi chamberings, kids), and

(b) Getting a marginally (arguably) better, but still relatively weak pistol round (relative to what's legal in other states), only with slightly more velocity than the .454, just in order to accomplish the "just one" rifle for multiple situations setup.

Just don't make any sense! There ain't no need for a "just one" - get two rifles! If you can afford a quad scope and a #1, you can afford two rifles & scopes, espec. saving the $$ on the reaming job.

In fact, shooting a factory 200 gr .460 load at ANYTHING - deer, bear, younameit, but especially a bear - is a far worse idea than shooting the same critter with a good factory .454 Casull round, because the Casull bullet will be a 240-300 or heavier, with a better SD, and going a bit slower -- BOTH of which factors offer better penetration independently, and when combined, offer up a synergy that will result in exponentially better penetration than that 200 gr flying dime, and therefore be an exponentially better choice. Now granted, a *heavy* .460 load will do just fine on any number of game. But why limit your trajectory to a basketball-like one in other states when you could get a full-house bottlenecked round? Lookit, is the gunsmith gonna tell you "this is stupid"? No, because they wouldn't get a payday that way. But he's thinking it, and I'm tellin what he's thinking. Bah - do what you want, but I've said my piece - mark my words and makes yer choices.

 

[bogus mcall]

Thanks one again Dr Tad; But there is one thing you keep forgetting. It's what I want. No I'm not limiting myself to just one gun, but i do like to use one gun for multi purpose's. I have a Marlin 1894 .44mag that not only can I hunt deer with but i also hunt squirrel with it. Over kill? no, i use .44spec. loads for squirrel. The Ninja squirrels here really don't need a magnum load!
And really now Dr Tad, are you telling me that a Barnes 200gr at 2800fps (equal to 35 Whelen) is only going to penetrate a bear 1.5"? I'm pretty sure I could get alot of people to disagree with you. You really need to go back and read all the thread. I used the 200gr Barnes as a Good Big game round, and as for bear i used 400gr hard cast as the load. But I'm sure either would be more than enough. As for the 200gr Hornady, i stated it would only be good for plinking or varmints. It is not designed to hold together at those velocities.
As far as guns for other states,I want to ues a .460S@W on my Bear hunt next year. Yes there are better, more powerful,Rifles that i could use but that's not 'My' choice. I dont think a bear hit solidly with a .270, 30/06,300 mag or a .460 Wheatherby mag is going to be any deader than a bear shot with a 200gr Barnes or a 400gr hard cast form my .460S@W. But really, thanks for your imput. It gives me something to think about.
I 'm new to this blog and i dont know if you and Krochus have a on going battle but i can stand on my own as far as what i want and the reasons for it. Krochus had some good points and thank you for them. Doctor , your are also welcome even if i disagree with them.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Just to expand a little more.

The .460 would actually make some fair amount of sense if it was legal in your state, because THEN you could shoot .460 handloads or factory loads in it. OR, you could handload it down to .454 style /power, and/or .45 colt style/power loads, but INTO .460 S&W brass, which would give you the best of all worlds (were it not for your state law) - you could shoot any number of different power levels in .460 brass WITHOUT creating the ringing issue / kb risk - beautiful, right?

But here, it's the worst scenario, because even if you load up .454 type loadings in .460 brass, the game warden is gonna look at one and only one thing - the HEADSTAMP on the brass which will say .460 - and the game warden will probably know that .454 is ok, and .460 means a ticket or worse for you - he's not gonna care that you argue "but I only loaded up .454 loads into this brass - not .460" - all he cares about is the law and the case length.

So because of this reason, there's no good way around the "ringing" issue as there would be absent your silly state law. So again, it makes less than zero sense to me to do this.

If it's what you want, get it. But then why ASK about the relative merits of doing it versus not doing it? Accuracy problems? Nah, not if the bullet diameter fits your bore. But the other big issues I raise are more than enough reason to create a plan B - but hey, to each his own!

and as for bear i used 400gr hard cast as the load. But I'm sure either would be more than enough. As for the 200gr Hornady, i stated it would only be good for plinking or varmints. It is not designed to hold together at those velocities.

Right, I understand that. But the POINT is that krochus was using these 'spectacular' velocities a springboard or alleged premise for an (albeit non-cogent, non-sequitor) argument in favor of all things good and great about the .460, to support the idea that your idea is probably a good one**, just because the .460 is awesome - omg it's over 2750 fps!!!!

**which it's not.

I dont think a bear hit solidly with a .270, 30/06,300 mag or a .460 Wheatherby mag is going to be any deader than a bear shot with a 200gr Barnes [...] from my .460S@W.

Yes it will. You are incorrect if you're talking about a large tough grizzly. Barnes makes a good bullet generally, yes, but the 200 grainer STILL has a horrible SD in .451/.452, and would be a terrible, horrible, awful choice of chambering for brown bear in the grand scheme of things, with all the many, many choices in the world, and a worse choice than a .30-06 premium 180 up to a 220 by a factor of 100 to 1,000 times, somewhere in there. So I think you're incorrect - "actually dead" is in fact "deader" than ya know, "not dead". And although 'dead and found' is not 'deader' than 'dead but not found', it's still a far more desirable utcome.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Dr Tad you have the most selective reading of anyone I've ever met and an abrasive self centric attitude to match!

Exibit A 45-70 is NOT legal for the OP's home state the Ruger in question is currently so chambered. 454 casull is Now since the costs in building a 460 and a 454 Ruger no1 are the EXACT SAME *** would you not opt for the option of more power.


Exibit B You keep ranting and raving about pistol bullets on bear. How exactly is a 2000fps 400rgn hard cast lead gas checked bullet the hammer of god in .458" dia but a worthless piece of crap in .452" as per post #13 THEY'RE THE SAME BULLET

Note I do not mention the 200 and 300grn load in any context other than to give the OP some velocity data

(a) Actually CREATE a risk of having the ringing issue causing you to blow yourself up with .460, (which is a real risk because if you're a legal hunter, we KNOW that you'll be shooting a LOT of .454 in that gun, which is what creates the ring - Do NOT trifle with 65K psi chamberings, kids), and

You keep stating this made up phobia as a fact CITE ONE EXAMPLE of this being a real legitimate issue. and even if it were is it that complicated to clean your chamber periodically? I mean really?

(b) Getting a marginally (arguably) better, but still relatively weak pistol round (relative to what's legal in other states), only with slightly more velocity than the .454, just in order to accomplish the "just one" rifle for multiple situations setup.

see exhibit A

Just don't make any sense! There ain't no need for a "just one" - get two rifles! If you can afford a quad scope and a #1, you can afford two rifles & scopes, espec. saving the $$ on the reaming job.

Frankly, reaming that gun to .460 is about the stupidest idea that you could come up with in that particular situation - really, krochus, c'mon.... Get a T/C Venture in .270, .30-06, etc., for other states if you're on a budget and have a 2nd nice rifle, and don't mess up a nice No. 1 with some harebrained idea

what part of re barrel on a Ruger No1 and needing to be reamed anyhow do you have difficulty comprehending? How is is more expensive to cut a 460 chamber than 454casull? A chamber of some sort must be cut and I'm pretty darn sure 4d's reamer rental fee is the same for a 454 or 460 reamer

But here, it's the worst scenario, because even if you load up .454 type loadings in .460 brass, the game warden is gonna look at one and only one thing - the HEADSTAMP on the brass which will say .460 - and the game warden will probably know that .454 is ok, and .460 means a ticket or worse for you - he's not gonna care that you argue "but I only loaded up .454 loads into this brass - not .460" - all he cares about is the law and the case length.

My mind boggles why don't you treat the op like a complete idiot some more. It's rather odvious that the OP intends to hunt with 454 since that's whats legal so WHY in gods name would he as you put it "because even if you load up .454 type loadings in .460 brass" knowing this would be a ticket. It's illegal in Arkansas to use FMJ ammo.....You know what I DON'T USE THE STUFF even without your nannying

Thanks one again Dr Tad; But there is one thing you keep forgetting. It's what I want.

This is the one and only post in this thread that matters

 

[R.W.Dale]

So because of this reason, there's no good way around the "ringing" issue as there would be absent your silly state law. So again, it makes less than zero sense to me to do this.

and just to be CRYSTAL clear here's what S&W thinks about your "ringing issue"

it's a little hard to read but what does it say about cartridges that can also be fired?? So again the onus is on you to cite one example of this "ringing issue" actually..well..becoming a real issue that you seem to be SO fond of pontificating about. In fact while you're at it please explain exactly how this problem manifests itself so I can disproove you on a much more detailed level.

 

[bogus mcall]

Dr Tadd maybe i should have made myself clear when i said "Bear" I was meaning "Black Bear" As far as Griz or Brown bear, yes i would step up to a Marlin 45/70, but only because of it being a repeater. (faster follow up shots) And here again i agree with Krochus, how is a 400gr .458 at 2000fps any better than a 400gr .451 at 2000fps? Seems like to me the .451 would penetrate a little deeper because of the diameter of the bullet and there for having less Resistance. (Oh now your probably going to tell me that is is going to shoot through without any tissue or hydroponic shock. same as a FMJ)
As far as shooting alot of .454 casulls, no only enough to zero and hunt with. The rest will be loaded into .460 cases.
As far as bear hunting (Black) with a no-lead bullet, i agree the Barnes 275gr would be a much better choice.
The part about the .460 head stamp, come on now! Another one for krochus.
And as far as the carbon ring, i was scratching my head on that one but didnt figuer it was worth arguing about. I have never had any problems in my 629 shooting it mainly with .44spc. after a while the ring does build up so as a .44 mag wont chamber and i have to clean it out. But i fail to see how this is going to make a meaningful rise in pressure.
as far as messing up a good no.1, how could i? I'm having a well known smith do the work. Maybe you have heard of him. Regan Nonneman is his name and has quite abit of experance with no.1's. If you dont know him, go check out his web sight @ leveractions.com
I never asked at any time about the merits of doing this, only about the accuracy of firing .454 casull in a .460S@W chamber. Thanks again, Dr Tadd and you also Krochus.

 

[Marlin_444]

NICE!

 

[kanook]

38 in a 357 no problem

44 special in a 44 mag no problem

45 scholfield in a 45 colt no problem

45 colt in a 454 casuall no problem

454 casuall in a 460 S&W why a problem?

The manufacture says it's safe, The custom builder says it's safe, but the internet says it's not so it must be true.

 

[fprefect]

Amazing. A 1.62 length case length max?? Why are we electing people so freakin' ignorant who could think up such a law. If it where me, I would ignore the damn thing and use any cartridge you prefer.

F. Prefect

 

[kanook]

If it where me, I would ignore the damn thing and use any cartridge you prefer.

F. Prefect

I don't think the OP want any jail time if caught. We are to promote legal and safe, not illegal.

 

[R.W.Dale]

38 in a 357 no problem

357mag in a 357MAX

44 special in a 44 mag no problem

45 scholfield in a 45 colt no problem

45 colt in a 454 casuall no problem

454 casuall in a 460 S&W why a problem?

The manufacture says it's safe, The custom builder says it's safe, but one dude on the internet with NO experience says it's not so it must be true.

I agree 100% kanook and I'll add to this
The red is mine


What Dr.Tad in his infinitive wisdom on all things firearm forgets is that 460S&W is almost a 1/2" LONGER than 454 casull. Meaning any dreaded ring produced by 454 will either A prevent 460 ammo from cambering *1 and B even if chambered this horrid ring will be behind the bullet and thus just be merely a nuisance for extraction not unlike mosin nagant "sticky bolt" syndrome.



*1 = refer to Bogus'es statement

I have never had any problems in my 629 shooting it mainly with .44spc. after a while the ring does build up so as a .44 mag wont chamber and i have to clean it out. But i fail to see how this is going to make a meaningful rise in pressure.

 

[kanook]

If the 357mag to 357max isn't enough how about the 44mag to the 44supermag (445 super to some)

 

[kludge]

bogus mcall wrote:

Next, by loading the 200gr FTX up to 2200-2300fps in 454 casull this should make a fine 200yrd deer gun.

Before you do, you should go to the Hornady website and compare the BC of the 200gr FTX with the 240gr or 300gr XTP. Then use a ballistics calulator and compare the trajectories (bullet drop) and downrange energy (50, 100, 150, and 200 yards). There is a decent ballistics calculator at www.handloads.com

You might be surprised by what you find.

Just for arguments try 1800fps for the 300gr, 2000fps for the 240gr, and 2200fps for the 200gr.

A "warm" .45 Colt level 255gr LSWC at 1000fps (1200 in a rifle) will do the job on deer, but for the ranges you are talking about, I would go with the 240gr XTP in a .454 level load. In a rifle with the right powder you should be able to get the .454 Casull to do 2000fps, I get >1700 fps with the starting load out of a 9.5" Super Redhawk.

Frankly it's not pleasant to shoot (understatment) and I'm working to reduce the 300gr to 1200-1300fps and the 240gr to 1300-1400fps.

 

[kludge]

Amazing. A 1.62 length case length max?? Why are we electing people so freakin' ignorant who could think up such a law.

1.62" was specifically chosen so as to include the .500 S&W Magnum. It also allows the .458 SOCOM, which is the pet round of some people wanting to use the AR platform for hunting, and who also had the ear of the people writing the law.

The 1.16" minimum case length allows the .44 SPL, but disallows the .38 SPL. In other words, they knew exactly was they wanted and wrote the law accordingly.

 

[dom1104]

<deleted> decided this thread was getting a little too hot, didnt want to fan the flames.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I'm out but I want to say sorry to Krochus for referring to his advice as nonsense; I got a little agitated last night for some reason; in a weird mood. I just don't want the man to make a mistake that he will regret later.

Anyhow, my basic points still stand.

 

[bogus mcall]

Dom1104, thanks for your advice. I do have a savage ML and it is wonderful. But the whole point to the 460 s@w is because I want it, not do I need it or is there better choices. I figure a casull load will duplicate the savage or come close anyway.

 

[bogus mcall]

After doing some Ballistic research as has been suggested,The 200gr bullets are not as impressive as i originally thought. (this being in the .454 casull) The heaver bullets as in 275gr Barnes and 300gr SST seem the way to go for a 200yard deer gun in Indiana.
If my numbers are right the Barnes 275gr at 2100fps has 1453fps still at 200 yds and 1289 of energy. And the drop is 10.0" w/a 100Yard zero.
The 300gr SST at 2100fps has 1453fps @200yards and 1406 energy with a 10.0" drop. These number are about what i expect i get using my Savage ML. So i should be right where i want to be and still be legal.
The numbers get more impressive out of the .460S@W. I'm not going to get into that because the original question was about accuracy of the .454 casull in the .460S@W rifle. So if i get acceptable accuracy from the Casull then the re-barreling will have been a success, and i will be Happy!

 

[Bill_Rights]

bogus,

You said, referring to the .454 Casull chambering you now have:

This maybe the perfect rifle after all.

I AGREE. I agree so much, I just bought one. I wanted the ability to use .45LC "cream puff" loads (or "Cowboy Action" loads) for plinking and wife and kids use, plus go all the way up the chain you describe to high-power .454 Casull rounds, either high-velocity/lighter bullet (which is still heavy by .308/.30-06 standards!) or heavy-bullet/lower velocity. However, I bought a Win 94 lever-action clone (Rossi M92), just because I've never had that kind of action and thought it would be fun. Obviously, I am not a serious user, yet. When I get the rifle (arrives in a few days) and exercise it, plus figure out optics or improved iron sights, I will know whether this is a serious rifle I would trust for humane kill on game (and at what distances) or trust with my life against dangerous critters.

Whichever way you go, you may want to consider hand-cast lead "boolits". This way you can get precisely the diameter of bullet you need, for ex. a .454 Casull load to fit snuggley in the .460 bore, if you go that way. Even within the .45LC/.454Casull chambering, there are differences in the diameters of "store bought" component bullets and factory ammo for the two cases.

You probably know it, but I was amazed to find recently that there are a couple of cast bullet web forums and a Lyman book all about it. Also, I used to think bare lead bullets are only good up to ~1000 fps muzzle velocity (else get melting, leading of bore, etc.) This is not true. The cast lead "boolitt" community has figured this all out, what with different alloys, cooling rates (tempering) and lubes.