45acp +p for backpacking in WA.

[Glockorama]

I've noticed quite a few threads lately about backpacking sidearms. Most of the responses have been towards a .44 magnum or a 10mm. I have a 6 3/4 in model 29, but it is in 100% condition and I don't want to endanger it by exposing it to the rough and tumble of camping (plus it is heavy and a bit unwieldy). I have a Sig 220 that I thought might work well and was wondering what others thought of this combined with a good, heavy +P load. How do +P 45's compare with 10mm loads? I would like to get a Glock 20, but funds will not allow that yet. Thoughts?

 

[rick_reno]

backpacking...

I've got to ask - what is it these people encounter while backpacking that they suggest 44 magnums? Is this a combined hunting/backpacking trip - or just wandering around in the woods? Unless the woods of Wa. are that different from the woods of N. Idaho - the most dangerous creature you might run into is a human. A 45 ACP should be adequate. My experience has taught me that very few animals that live in the woods want to interact with us and usually take off. I've run into bears that will back off a bit and snort at me, usually a yell sends them scampering into the timber.

 

[only1asterisk]

I wouldn't use 45 ACP +P if the 220 were mine, assuming of course it is the common Al frame. The added wear and tear outweighs the additional power IMHO. Standard 45 ACP should work great. I don't think there is anything wrong with a little bit more power in the woods. The danger from animals can de debated. When it comes to dangerous humans, the woods are full of marginal cover, and a little more penetration can't hurt (esp. since there are no innocent bystanders). Further, some people just like to shoot bigger guns for no other reason than fun.


Dave

 

[Jay Bakerr]

Carry your SIG 220. It'll handle anything you might have a tussle with, that mainly being a two legged varmit, rather than four, odds are.

Although I've carried .44 Mags., .41 Mags, and .45 Colts (I just like to play with all of 'em), my standard carry out in the boonies is my Colt's Lightweight Commander (1957), with Federal 230 gr. Hydra Shoks.

Never worried one minute that it wouldn't be sufficient if I needed it for a problem.

Handgun hunting?? Then I travel the forests with the "more velocity/more power" handguns.

Load that SIG 220 with the Federal Hydra Shoks and never worry about a thing.

J.B.

 

[Zak Smith]

If you want a little more punch than normal .45ACP, get some of the 230gr +P from Proload. It's good stuff.

-z

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Glockorama, exactly what is it that you wish to be doing with your gun while backpacking? Obviously, the +P aspect has no direct influence backpacking itself.

If the gun and ammo are for self protection, Rick is probably right that the most dangerous animal that you are likely to encounter will be another human, but unlike carrying in the city, you can encounter other threats in the woods that are extremely dangerous non- human animals, even if the chances of such encounters are less than for humans. Most people don't consider animals such as deer and elk as being dangerous, but during the rut, these animals can be extremely dangerous. Wild boar (feral pigs) enjoy the forests and can be deadly. Add to that black bear, coyotes, wolves (extremely rare), and mountain lions.

Yes, these additional non-human potential threats may not pose that much of a risk to you, but if you do have a bad encounter, the resolution of that encounter will likely depend on just how well you deal with the situation. It isn't like there will be a lot of ready help for you and if you are injured, are you going to be able to travel to get to help?

If you are backpacking and camping, then you are carrying food. Be sure to follow proper procedures for storage of your food in a safe location away from were you camp due to the fact that your food will likely draw in interested animals such as bears. There is a neat series of books called something like, "When Bears Attack" and the vast majority of documented attacks described in the series all have to do with stupid behavior on the part of the humans. One of my favorites was about a guy who had been fishing on a boat, docked his boat, and was carrying a pack full of fish as he walked inland to his cabin that was about 2 miles from where the boat was left. He docked at dusk and before being attacked had noted that he heard the sounds of male bears going through their terrorial fighting. Okay, so it is late, low light, carrying stinky fish over a relatively long distance, and was aware of bears in the immediate area that would be pretty pumped up from their territorial fighting, and yet the guy expressed surprise that the bears attacked him. Go figure.

You know, a 9 mm+P, .45 acp, or .45 acp +P might be good enough to handle most of your problems, but do you really want to be carrying something only best described as 'good enough' for most threats? It would be prudent to carry something that is much better than just being good enough for most threats. Ideally, you should carry a gun and caliber that is at least good enough for your worst possible threat and even then, you should have something that is better than qualifying at the low end for the worst problem.

 

[Gordy Wesen]

I live in Western Washington and frequently walk my dogs on the abandoned RR, now walking paths. It begins around Duvall and goes a considerable distance out of North Bend to the pass.
I have had several couger encounters. The first made the biggest impression. We rounded a corner and came upon a cat headed in the same direction...he was using the path just as we were. I downed my dogs and advanced. Distance was 20 yards. He stopped, turned sideways and gave us the predator death look. I made myself bigger, waved with both hands with some noise and eyeballed him with no fear. He was absolutely unaffected. This was His path and who was I? Just as I began to wonder how this was going to play out he casually turned his head and sauntered off the path and up the hill. He was a solid 150 pounds and about 6 feet through the body...add 3 feet + or - for the tail. Around that time several cougers were molesting horses in Carnation. One was killed by a housewife and placed on a wooden picnic table. His length was the length of the table top and his tail draped over the end to hit the ground.
I Never walked again with out packing. I first chose a .357. Then I went to my Sig 220. I finally chose a Glock 29 for its compact size, round count and extra punch. Cats are thin skinned but I want something that will leave an exit wound. If I ever get the chance, you'll see me humping down the path with a hind quarter under my coat.

 

[Glockorama]

So how do the +P 45 loads size up against the 10mm? I am pretty much decided on an autoloader, but, as stated earlier, can't afford a G-20 right now.

 

[Trumpet]

OR
Get a S&W 625. Fast as heck reloads with moonclips. You can shoot mild 45acp loads, +p and +p+ loads, and you can load some SERIOUS 45auto rim loads. The 625 can go all day shooting this stuff too and never miss a beat.


Rich

 

[Gordy Wesen]

I don't know how to answer you. My inclination would be Cor-Bon in the lighter bullet weights. Or perhaps the RBCD.
http://www.rbcd.net/
Of course, a guy could just say to heck with it and just carry 230g ball and still be well armed. There are no magic guns. Most of this simply boils down to what you are comfortable with. The biggest Grizzly on record for some time was shot dead by a squaw with a .22 short. She shot him in the ear as he passed by.
By the way, one sign to look for are leaves and debris pulled into a pile and urinated on. If you have dogs they'll pick up on that right away.

 

[David4516]

"what is it these people encounter while backpacking that they suggest 44 magnums"

Black Bear and Mt. Lions

I live in Northwest Oregon and have encounterd both. I have not had to shoot at anything, at least not yet. So far all the critters I've run into were just as afraid of me as I was of them.

My Carry gun, for in the city or on the trail, is a Makarov in 9mm Makarov (aka 9X18 ). I carry JHPs in the city but FMJs in the woods. I figure the extra penatration will be a good thing should I run into a Mt. Loin, but I hope I don't have to shoot at a bear. I'd like to get a new (and bigger) gun for when I'm in bear country, but there are 2 things holding me back:

#1: Lack of funding

#2: I'd hate to ruin the finish on a new gun

But as long as I steer clear of the bears, my Mak should be able to handle pretty much anything I'll run into. It is very reliable and easy to carry because it is so thin. It would be nice if it were lighter, but it's not that big of a deal...

 

[Gordy Wesen]

From another thread.
Good article on cats.

http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm

 

[Powderman]

For urban carry: G22 or Colt Enhanced in .45.

For the woods: Ruger Bisley Vaquero in .45 Colt, with some nice, plump, meaty 250 grain soft points, with heaping helpings of Blue Dot powder. Yum!

 

[pale horse]

I generally carry my .45 for both occasions, woods or town. For me it is simplistic that way I dont have to worry about maual of arms on different weapons.

Powderman you love that blue dot dont you?

.45 should be nuff gun to handle any critter if you do your part.

 

[dairycreek]

If there is a chance that you might encounter a black bear............

then you will surely want to have the .44 magnum. What David4516 said is right on point. I have hiked the woods of northwest Oregon for over 40 years and have run into black bear on occasion. Most of the time they turned and ran the other way. One did not and pursued me with malice in mind. It turned out to be a very sick female bear (which was why it pursued me) and I am still glad to this day that I had my Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 mag. It surely saved my bacon that day. I never before, or since, needed a 44 mag in the woods. But, to this day, when I am in the woods I carry one. My current woods carry gun is the S&W Trail Boss which is a Model 629 with a 3" barrel. Good shooting

 

[David4516]

You live in North Plains? Cool, I often stop at the North Plains McDonalds for lunch on my way to target shooting...

I haven't seen a Black Bear this far North, I've seen them a bit to the south (toward Bend) more than once. Around here all I've seen is Mt. Lions... they don't scare me as much as the bears do, but I still wouldn't want to mess with one...

 

[CZF]

10MM ALL THE WAY! The mighty TEN gives you rapid fire shots
with a quick reload.

I much prefer my 10MM to my .45 with +P loads. The TEN has
the downrange energy to handle most any animal or human
that wishes harm.

S&W Mountian Gun with Hornady XTPs comes in second. The
.44 is lighter, but seems bigger to carry, offers only six shots.

10x10MM

 

[9x19]

If you're walking around anywhere you might shake hands (paws) with a critter this size, ask yourself which caliber would make you feel good?

 

[agtman]

But don't take the word of 10mm fans alone.

Here's what Speer said in their #12 Reloading Manual (p. 537):

"Many hikers who frequent bear country are choosing the 10mm as a trail gun. It is more compact than a heavy-frame revolver, holds more cartridges and its performance exceeds that of the .357 Magnum. For this application, we feel that Speer's tough, 200gn TMJ is an excellent choice for deep penetration."

Personally, I'd prefer Hornady's 200gn FMJ-FP, because (1) I think it's a better bullet, and (2) if you don't reload you can still buy it loaded in full-strength "factory" form (1250fps) from Texas Ammo.

But you get the point.

 

[AirPower]

Just wondering, can the .357mag JHP reliably stop a bear?

 

[David4516]

I don't think you want to use JHPs on bears...

 

[Mannlicher]

It's plain to see that the 10MM guys are just as fanatical a cult as those Makarov or CZ52 guys.

Y'll carry what you will. My carry in the boonies will continue to be a .44 Mag, or .45 Colt.

 

[Sean Smith]

So how do the +P 45 loads size up against the 10mm? I am pretty much decided on an autoloader, but, as stated earlier, can't afford a G-20 right now.

To answer the question, they don't.

To compare apples to apples, you have to compare sectional densities, not bullet weights. Because we want lots of penetration against critters, we want the highest sectional density we can get.

A 230gr .45 has about the same sectional density as a 180gr 10mm, and a 200gr 10mm would have about the same sectional density as a 250gr .45, except that you can't find 250gr .45 ACP ammo anywhere.

The hottest .45 ACP+P stuff I've seen in 230gr maxes out at 950 ft/sec for about 460 ft/lbs.

Cor-Bon's 10mm 180gr JSP is 1,320 ft/sec for nearly 700 ft/lbs. Their 200gr Penetrator is 1,200 ft/sec for 640 ft/lbs. Some smaller brands (e.g. Texas Ammunition Company) offer even hotter 10mm hunting loads.

Even .45 Super isn't really better than 10mm. TAC's .45 Super Express will get you a 230gr bullet up to 1,200 ft/sec... but that's from a 6" barrel, and the Cor-Bon 10mm figures are from a 4.6" barrel. With 6" of barrel, the Cor-Bon is going to be knocking on 1,400 ft/sec, at which point the whole thing becomes a wash at best... except that the .45 ACP+P is probably still losing out in raw penetration ability to the 200gr 10mm out of equal barrel lengths.

Of course, once you get into handloads, all bets are off, but breaking 800 ft/lbs with 6" barrels and heavy bullets in 10mm is very do-able if you are careful and use the right powders (e.g. 800-X). You really can't reliably beat the ballistics of 10mm in an autoloader until you get to stuff like .460 Rowland or .40 Super... at which point you are probalby better off with a revolver if you want a decent service life from your firearm.

 

[David4516]

"10MM guys are just as fanatical a cult as those Makarov or CZ52 guys"

Hi, my name is David and I'm a Maka-holic...

 

[Dr.Rob]

I don't recommend shooting +p in aluminum frames. Period.

And in my experience, while pro load is a good, solid low flash high energy accurate load, I'd get stiffer springs before I used it. That +p stuff they sell in .45 can overpower standard springs.

If you take your 45, stick to std loads, like Federal hydra shocks.