50 cal Machine gun on sloop vs. 38 gun frigate... who would win?

[sacp81170a]

ceetee and bogie have it exactly right. Stay away from the broadsides and disable the steering mechanism of the frigate. If it can't steer, it can't fire accurately. Rake the decks at leisure, cut the spars off the masts, wait for crew to surrender. Instability of aiming platform at sea would affect the 32 pounders much more than the M2. The cannon would have to be pretty close to be anywhere near as accurate as the .50 would be. If we're throwing an M2 on, why not add a Mark 19?

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

"Instability of aiming platform at sea would affect the 32 pounders much more than the M2. The cannon would have to be pretty close to be anywhere near as accurate as the .50 would be."

Actually not, you are comparing a Frigate, which is a large stable platform, against that of a sloop, so in an equal sea state, the Frigate would handle better and provide more stability, due to size and weight and draft.

A 32 pound (6 inch diameter) or 24 pound (5 1/2 inch diameter) Iron cannon ball that in the case fired from a 32 pounder with full 11 pound charge was doing 1600 fps puts the .50 cal to shame, since what makes a cannon ball so fearsome on a wooden ship, is not so much the ball, but the hail of splinters that it unleashes when it punches thru the side of a wooden ship, think claymore, but with slivers of wood, instead of ball bearings and not just 1 2 or 3 inch pieces, more like 1 2 or 3 foot pieces. That cannon ball has greater lethality than the .50 cal, in addition to it's anti material properties.

Cannons are plenty accurate, but yes they are more an area weapon, than a precision one, but when your target is 60 foot long and you are launching 1,2 or 10 projectiles or more at the enemy, who can't slam the throttles to maximum, to avoid the shot or turn on a dime, then it is enough.

 

[High Planes Drifter]

quote:
I think it bears mentioning that the .50 BMG is not some
sort of mythical uber cannon. It's just a very large gun.

That is all.

In WW2, there were planes that were quite thorougly
perforated by .50 BMG fire that went onto complete thier
missions and make a safe landing.

It's a big round, but let's not start ascribing magical
powers to it.
-----------------------

Funny thing about those planes that were perforated by .50 back in "dubya dubya two" - , they didnt fill up with water up in the sky . As long as a plane isnt hit in something essential like a fuel or hydraulic line, or the engine, it stands an good chance of getting back to base. A ship takes in water through those otherwise "insugnificant" holes. One Ma Duece on a sloop vs. one Frigate.....my hard earned buck goes with Ma Duece.

 

[Alexfubar]

You guys ever SEE the US Constitution ? it was once the state of the art killing machine. It's bigger than many imagine , faster , and was once crewed by people who meant serious business. She once fought a sloop and a frigate at the same time and captured both. About half the fights she was in left the enemy ship too smashed to bother capturing it , so they just burned them.

In open water the whole fight is the sailing. It could take days of manoevering before the first shots were fired , and if one captain gets it right , the other guys are in big trouble.

bear in mind we're talking upward of 20 cannonballs per barrage , one pass behind the MG boat - where the cannonballs get to rip down the interior of the ship legthwise - and everyone dies.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

Shaughn Leayme great post.
For some others, not sure why you believe that the frigate is going to let you just set behind it and shoot its rudder up, both ships are just as maneuverable and just as fast at open sea. If the sloop tries to come up behind the frigate, the frigate would turn and give it a broadside to the bow. While I am a big fan of ma duce and all of her abilities the big guns on the frigate out range her and are far more powerful. Sailors in the 1800s were used to rolling waves, so yes they are able to hit things out at distances. Also it would take thousands of hits to do any real damage to the frigate.

Now if you had anti-tank missiles, mortars, RPGs, a 20mm mini guns or better yet a 30mm mini gun thats found on the A10 warthog and more then one of them, then we are talking. But as good as a 50cal is its not up to the task.

 

[Alexfubar]

double tap ...

 

[gazpacho]

Depends on the weather.

50 BMG is not all that accurate from the back of a jeep bouncing through the back country at 25 mph.

After much consideration, I'd give a moderate edge to the frigate.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Roundball would likely skip along the water surface, so exact aim wouldn't be necessary. Frigate also produces its own smoke cover behind which to reload.

However, mobility would given an edge to the sloop, and high rate of fire for the 50 would mean eventual destruction of the ship by fire, IMO.

 

[jad0110]

You guys ever SEE the US Constitution ?

Sure did. If I had to be on either, I'd think I'd prefer the frigate! They didn't call her old ironsides for nothing.

 

[Colt46]

Shaughn Leayme- Philip Vere Broke?

His 38 gun Frigate(HMS Shannon) met the USS Chesapeake in single battle and his concentrated fire devestated the American ship. A party boarded the crippled Chesapeake and Broke was seriously injured when a group of surrendered american sailors took up arms and tried to kill him while he was seperated from the rest of his party. Sadly, the wound prevented him from further service. He went on to become a gunnery specialist with the Royal Navy and was quite decorated.
The American contribution to the affair was from our own Captain Lawrence who coined the rallying cry "Don't give up the ship!"

 

[Manedwolf]

Keep in mind that, as others have said here, many frigates packed nasty alternative ordnance like chainshot (think bolo from HELL), and grapeshot. I've seen a dageurrotype of what grapeshot did to a bridge in the Civil War. I'd not want to be on the wrong end of a round of that.

Also keep in mind that frigate crews probably drilled on how to quickly take down an approaching, smaller marauder...it was still an age of pirates, after all.

Picture if they loaded an entire broadside with grapeshot and fired one after another at the smaller vessel, adjusting range with each successive shot. The smaller ship would be a...mess, I think, and at least the gun would be out of commission?

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

Colt 46

I do believe that was the name, Thanks.

When ships of the sail era went to engage another first thing they did was reduce to fighting trim, taking down extra sail, that in the battle could catch fire or if rigging was shot away, cause more damage when the wind caught it. The Frigate by virtue of a greater spread of canvas over that of a sloop, would not be as disadvantage under fighting trim and in many cases was just as nimble as the smaller ship and as fast.

Then there is construction, a sloop was never intended to face a rated ship, it was used for dispatches and as a scout, but many time in battle fleets of the era a lighter frigate served the same purpose (more guns is always better).

A Sloop gets into gun range of a rated ship, the sloop can be smashed into kindling, before they can ever get the 4 pounder (standard arms for most sloops) into anything like effective range.

Another thing to mull over is that an experienced gun crew could reload a 32 pounder gun in 90 seconds, by the way a 32 pounder naval long gun weighs about 3 tons, now you have an entire gundeck firing and loading, that is a lot of iron headed your way.

Then you have a fact that many people do not know, but American and British ships of the time frame (1812) were also playing with both hotshot and exploding shot, both of which are a lot more effective than even the incendiary rounds from a .50 caliber.

Just like no Frigate would want to take on a ship of the line, unless it had no choice, the captain of the Sloop would avoid battle if it could be helped, even with numbers, his ship just couldn't take a hit from iron of serious caliber.

For those who wonder a Ship of The Line is the battle ship of the Sail era.

USS Columbus (1819) 2nd rate

2,480 ton displacement
192 feet long
780 officers and men
68 x 32 pounder long guns
24 x 42 pounder Carronade

HMS Victory (1778) 1st rate
3500 tons displacement
227 feet overall
9 knots max
850 men
forecastle
2 x12 pound medium
2 x 68 carronade
Quarter deck
12 x 12 pound short guns
Upper deck
30 x 12 pound short guns
Middle deck
28 x 24 pounder long guns
Lower deck
30 x 32 pounder Long tom's extended range over conventional 32 pounders

 

[dm1333]

A lot of people are assuming the sloop is faster

The longer the waterline the faster the vessel will be. Sloops were generally small, in the 60 foot or less range. A coastal schooner might go up to 150 feet or so. A typical frigate, take a look at the spec for Old Ironsides. To figure out the hull speed use the formula 1.34 x the square root of the waterline length. With more speed the frigate can keep the sloop off of her stern and pound the sloop into matchsticks.

Also, don't assume that the old "square rigger" would not handle well. These ships were fast and weatherly and tough enough to take on hurricanes or to round the capes and all the weather associated with that. It would also take a whole lot of .50 cal holes before the frigate was taking on enough water to matter. Making water (taking on water through seams) was a fact of life in those days and they were well prepared with large pumps that could handle a lot of water. Powder magazines were also heavily built as protection against shot so you probably would have to get very close before the .50 with incendiary rounds had enough ooomph to penetrate the hull and the magazine.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

There are frigates and then there are frigates. The Constitution was considered to be an extremely large frigate. Frigates came in many different permutations, the common factor being a single gun deck. Many frigates were armed with 12, or 18, or 24 pounder guns as main armament. Twenty four 12's was a typical small frigate in the British Navy, circa the American Revolution.

Muzzle velocity of black powder cannon runs around 1200 fps, firing round ball. The ballistic coeffiecient cannon balls does not greatly exceed that of barn doors.

I'm takin' Ma Deuce.

900F

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

The problem is that even a light frigate is still going to be stronger structurally and still has an advantage in weight of steel and as has been shown historically, that 2000 yards plus is not unrealistic for an engagement with cannons and given the relatively light construction of a Sloop, it wouldn't take much.

Then you have the other part of it, the sloop is firing from 2000 yards with it's 50 cal and the frigate now turns and comes in on a course to close the distance with the sloop, the sloop now has to turn and run, hoping that it can out run the Frigate, which has a greater spread of canvas and most likely equivalent speed, by picking a course that allows a bow chaser to bear, they will be trying to dismast the sloop, or bounce cannon balls thru the stern windows, the 50 cal can be brought to bear, but the plunging motion of the ship and the rate of closure and the angle of approach, would all combine to make it a very difficult shot for the gunner on the 50, resulting in a dispersed cone of fire, same applies to the gunner on the frigate, but you have a more stable gun platform and he is now firing at the most vulnerable spot on any sailing ship and the fall of shot, would be easier to spot, and adjust for in relative terms, than that of the .50, which would be lost in the bow spray of the approaching frigate and any wave action.

I donot believe, that a Sloop armed with .50 cals, has any chance against a frigate, light or heavy, unless it was dead in the water an uncrewed.

 

[CrazyIrishman]

The Frigate wins hands down!! Its heavier built and in the case of the USS Constellation from 1797, carried 38-24lb long cannon at 19 cannon per broadside. If only 50% of a broadside hit the sloop it would make for a real mess!

She was 164 ft. long, with a 41 ft. beam, weighed 1,278 tons, made 14 kts. and had a complement of 340 officers and men.

By contrast, the sloop carried between 10 to 18 cannon, was 40-70 feet in length on average, and weighed 40-70 tons. Even if you add a 50 cal. the sloop is still out gunned,and due to construction could not endure many hits.

I don't know how far a 24 lb. cannon can penetrate, but a 32 lb. cannon could go through 2.5 ft. of oak.

One other thing to consider besides the size of each ship is the experience of the captain.

If the sloop had the better captain (doubtful but possible), they are still at a disadvantage but the tactics used might be better. Should the frigate have the better captain (more likely), then the advantage that the frigate already has is increased even more (IMO).

Rather than worry about the steering, I would first dismast the sloop then go after gun emplacements. When the ship can't move the steering doesn't matter much anymore.

In 1813 British ships were advised not to engage US Navy frigates unless they had a minimum of 2 against 1 !

 

[akodo]

I think we need also to know what era frigate we are talking about. It is my understanding that naval warfare technology was improving, albeit slowly, as time passed. The cannon technology was much better in the war of 1812 than it was in 1752

 

[oneshooter]

Then there is the USS Independence, started as a 74 gun, 2 deck ship of the line. Was razeed(cut down) to a single deck frigate of 54 guns, but retained the sails of a much larger, and heavier, line of battle ship. This made her VERY fast, and since the remaining guns were her lower battery of 32lb "Long Toms" (9 1/2ft long, main charge of 15lbs of powder) VERY powerfull!!She was the most powerfull Frigate in any navy!! NO CONTEST, sloop LOSES!!!
This is what she looked like as a frigate.

She served from 1814 till 1913!!

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/line/independ.htm

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[CrazyIrishman]

Oneshooter,


Its a shame that more ships like this weren't kept and restored,especially one with the historical significance that this one had!

Ninetyeight years in service is way beyond exceptional! Then to meet her end as salvage ! Just doesn't seem to be appropriate for some reason!


Akodo,


We're talkin' naval guns from the 1812 era IIRC.

 

[plexreticle]

Back in the day these guys knew how to shoot naval guns and sail. Those warship would layout a lot of damage.

I think the frigate would pwn the sloop.

 

[230RN]

Being as old as I am and having seen much tragedy, not a lot can bring me to tears. But after reading the Independence' colorful history, this final entry did:

Pig iron and ballast were removed from her hold and valuable hard wood salvaged from her orlop deck knees. The night of 20 September 1919, Independence was burned on the Hunter's Point mud flats to recover her metal fittings. The sturdy veteran of the days of wooden ships and iron men had survived more than a century, 98 years of which were spent serving the U.S. Navy.

Fascinating thread, jamz ! Thanks !

 

[Nimitz]

very cool and informative thread...

Chad

 

[oneshooter]

Just found a picture of the USS Independence, dated 1913. She was a barracks and stores hulk at the time. Notice that she still has her masts and bowsprite!!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[50 Shooter]

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

 

[mpmarty]

Stand off at 3000 yards which is within the envelope for the Ma Duce and rain death on the decks, shred the rigging and cripple the big turkey so it can't move. Then come in from the rear and start chewing up rudder and cabins when close enough under the stern use your four pounders to sink her.