77 rounds, 1 BG

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Does it irk to call policemen cops?

I am news media. We've asked the cops whether they mind being called that. They say it depends on who does it. If they're mad at us at the moment for stories they didn't like, they won't like it, but they normally don't seem to mind.
 
He allegedly shot five to seven times at the cops before his gun jammed.
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I wasn't aware "Glock" made .32 caliber guns. :p

And why did the police "fire" 77 rounds?? By who's authority? Wouldn't it have been better to employ them for the job they were intended to do? :D
 
can't comment on the NYPD... don't know em =)

But TRAINING is just that... its to get in the habit of doing certain things. No its not COMBAT experience... (aka someone fireing at you) but it can give you reactions that someone who hasn't trained won't have.

For instance - someone said something about the contests or what not... (IDPA? etc.. can't remember the particular acronym now) ... that isn't combat training - but i'm betting that it does train thier reflexes for when things happen.

Will you have that "intuition" that one probably gets from being in real operations and or combat situations? no... but there is a reason our armed forces trains (a lot) even if our PD's don't (from what i hear... altho i do have a friend who trains cops (er sorry - police people) from all over...

at any rate... who knows how they would react if this situation were to present itself... none of us... less some of us have been there.........

J/Tharg!
 
Last figures I saw on NYPD said 8 shots per officer per incident and a 20% hit rate.

This incident seems to have them shooting a bit more than average and hitting less than average.
 
Another thought popped into my mind as I was playing paintball.

Was it possible that any of this was cover fire?

Sometimes, keeping the guy pinned down is almost as beneficial as actually killing him.
 
From first hand experience I can assure you that there is NOTHING, absolutely nothing that can completely prepare you for that first time you have to draw and fire your weapon in self defense.

No matter how many times you have practiced it.
No matter how many times you have imagined it in your mind.
No matter how many different scenarios you have read about, dreamed about or dreamed up.

When it happens, it will be unique. It will be different. It will be astonishing.

And after it has happened there will still be no way for you to explain it completely to anyone who has not experienced it for themselves.
It really is one of those things that has to be experienced in order to be truely understood.

Some of you out there will understand what I have just tried to say.
But many of you will not.
And if you don't know I pray that you never have to find out.
 
Just admit it...the majority of LE's are horrible shots. They're not required to train all the time and hence don't. I'd put my faith in the civilians that I see at the range every week.

I don't buy that "you won't know until someone shoots at you" arguement. That's applicable to everyone. LE's, civilians, military. You train the way you plan to fight and when everything fails. You either return with overwhelming firepower or run like hell. Pure and simple.

This incident reminds me of the incident half a year ago, where S. CAL LE's shot up some guy in his car based on mistaken identity. Something like 200-250 rounds fired. Turns out the guy wasn't even carrying a gun and was only wounded.

Pretty crappy shooting if you ask me. And I should know, I work as a sniper for secret organization based in the Mall (I'm not telling you which one to protect the identies of my team). And I'm not going to tell you anymore because then I'd have to hunt everyone down on this board and kill them. :cool: :cool:
 
This incident reminds me of the incident half a year ago, where S. CAL LE's shot up some guy in his car based on mistaken identity. Something like 200-250 rounds fired. Turns out the guy wasn't even carrying a gun and was only wounded.
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It was the LASD, I believe it was 120 rounds. It pretty much came out to one magazine for each officer present. Too bad they shot one of their own and put rounds through the neighborhood buildings. There is a thread or two about it here somewhere.

If you watch the video, you can see the vehicle doesn't even start moving until the driver lets his foot off the brake, (A natural reaction when one is being shot at.)
 
Just admit it...the majority of LE's are horrible shots.
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VEry true. Of course most civilians liscensed to carry concealed are lousy shots as well. Thankfully the vast majority of criminals are extremely horrible shots.

Shooting was a very small part of my police training. Most of it dealt with laws and the enforcement of them. Sadly there was actually more training given dealing with paperwork than with tactics and marksmanship.
Which is understandable since many cops retire after 25-30 years having never needed to fire a shot on the street but paperwork is a daily ritual.


As I said before, there is nothing that will totally prepare you for what happens when the balloon goes up. But you can never have too much proper training. Notice I said proper training. Bullseye shooting may enable you to enlarge a silkworm's sphincter at 79.3 yards but it does precious little to prepare you for dealing with a knife wielding meth-head lusting after your Visa Debit Card.

I've personally known experienced officers who were reduced to jellyfish when the time came to stand and be counted. They had the knowledge. They had the training. They just did NOT have the mindset. The sad fact is that most people don't.


Now this is really gonna piss a lot of people off but it needs to be said.
Those of you who know me in real life have heard me say this several times.
Many of you who correspond with me have heard me allude to this at least once.


The majority people who carry a firearm during ordinary day to day activities just do not have the nerve to fire a shot under stress.
Yes that's what I said.
Most people who carry a gun everyday just simply do not have the guts to squeeze that trigger.


Now, I am NOT talking about active duty military personel. I am referring to Mr & Ms Amreica. John and Jane Doe who either wear a badge or possess a CCW.
They have not invested the time and effort to develop the physical skills and the appropriate mindset to deal with the severity of lethal force.

After all, they have the latest Wündergun loaded with Majík Bullets so what else could they possibly need? The mere fact that they have a gun (or better yet a gun AND a badge) means they are invincible.


Forget the old Joke that says, "The first rule of gunfighting is, Bring A Gun."
The real first rule of Gunfighting is, "Make sure you posess the Gunfighter Mindset."
Because if you don't, when the time comes that every shot counts, you just might end up scoring 14 misses.
And we all know that you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.
 
I'm not an LEO. I do shoot IDPA 2-3 times a year with a Browning High Power in .40 S&W (also my regular carry gun), and I'm certain my hit rate would be well above that exhibited in this case. There are dozens maybe hundreds of good self defense shoots by non-leo's every year, most of the ones I've read about are just a couple of shots for each wounded or dead BG. I only get to shoot about twice a month, about half with pistols and half with rifles. But that gives me 4-6 hours a month shooting the guns I carry or count on.

Yes, in my book 7 cops shooting 10-11 rounds each in 1-2 minutes, and getting 3 hits, is spaying and praying. They either didn't have a good shot and pulled the trigger anyway, or they simply weren't very good shots. I didn't see anything about the distance during the shoot out, but if you assume something under 50 feet, well....

Playing games helps (IDPA/IPSC), you learn to shoot accurately and fast. But that's only 1/3 of the equation, there is also mindset which is even more important. You have to have the right mentality to protect yourself and your family.
 
BluesBear,

I respectfully disagree, kinda.

For your "don't have what it takes to pull the trigger" to be factual then we should see far more "guy died when his own gun was taken away" situations than "citizen who bought a gun 10 years ago and put it in the drawer successfully caps (or scares away) a home invader."

I of course don't have any numbers, but I don't see that being the case. I think most people will fire when necessary. Of course, it's easier to hit the guy you watched break in to your rec room at 8 feet than to roll up as an LEO into an unknown situation from a greater distance and figure out the situation then engage effectively.

As far as type of training goes, most of our forefathers learned to shoot what we would call one-handed "bullseye" style and they did alright. The "mindset is everything" argument (which I do agree with) means that whatever training you do have, applied with proper mindset, will score hits when the chips are down.

I actually think I (and a lot of the gunnies around here) do more "mindset" and "what if" type training than the majority of non-gunnut/self-defensy cops. Coupled with my actual formal training, I feel confident I will fire (and effectively) when/if I have to.

Although, now that I'm actually a civilian, I hope not to have to.
 
And why did the police "fire" 77 rounds?? By who's authority? Wouldn't it have been better to employ them for the job they were intended to do?
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Look here, Mate -- if you think you are going to usurp my place as the grammar and style curmudgeon of the Western world, at least do it correctly. "Who's" is a contraction of "who is." The possessive pronoun form for who is "whose." :neener:
 
I cannot necassarily say that I would feel comfortable being protected by these people. I feel sorry for people in NYC. It was said that the average time between shots was 5-10 seconds. That is a perfect well aimed shot usng all of your fundamentals. I would have to force myself to wait that long.
 
I have done some force on force stuff, I was told a gunfight is whoever gets lucky. Training just helps you get lucky more often. One situation I went into and I was shot 3 times before I fired back. At the time I didn't realize it but my mask was covered in paint and I fired 17 rounds and half a reload back and hit the subject 3 times. This was from 6-10 feet. It showed me what the sudden assault is. The bad guy, a highly trained officer from a local PD hit me right between the eyes with all his rounds.

Another simulation myself and my partner were in a hallway with a woman with a gun to her head. From cover and being cool and collected because the situation took a long while to boil over, I hit with all my rounds from around 15 feet.

So I know that a shootout is a crazy situation, I know for sure that my trigger control and sight alignment went out the window. I was more or less pointing the gun and as soon as I could see the front sight I mashed the trigger down and keep firing till the threat stopped. Don't forget this was with paint rounds where the biggest threat was a little stinging. I cannot imagine how insane it would be with real lead flying.
 
to cracked and browning.... take it from someone who has been under fire as a LEO- you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

I shot IDPA for years and thought I was A-1 super combat ready for any firefight that came my way. All that sh#t went out the window after the first bullet went past my head and hit the wall a foot from my face. Stess from competition and stress from possibly getting killed are not even sorta the same. You get sweaty and tired from physical activity and the exertion of competition; Not from being scared to death.

I don't seem to remember any of the targets shooting back at the contestant in IDPA... Have they changed it in the past few years?

I also don't remember any stages where you are trying to hide and return fire from underneath a car.

I also don't remember any stages where if you loose... you die... or did they change that also?

Stop looking at it as 77 rounds, but instead look at it as each officer fired 11 rounds. Is this acceptable? Maybe not by IDPA standards, but the next IDPA match you shoot with a glock and a 12 lb trigger while someone shoots back at you, send me your score.

I was NYPD before going to the feds, and the training is barely adequet (sp?) at best. But who ever made the remark about luck is the closest one to reality. I worked with a senior officer in field training who had 4 combat crosses (that is a lot). You get one by being in a firefight and winning. He was always very open about his shoots and willing to say every time he was scared to death.

IDPA is a game. At an IDPA match if you have a bad day, you don't go home with a trophy. A firefight on the street is reality, you have a bad day, you don't go home. Try not to get the two of them confused. :banghead:
 
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So what's the point?

Don't train, because it can't possibly help you in "the real thing"?

Train, but realize you must, by definition, absolutely screw up, because there's no way you might actually be better at combat than the guy who dumps a mag ineffectively?

Or maybe, just maybe, since there are few/no live fire force on force schools available (if I recall my Marine Corps training accurately, none), train and plan ahead, knowing, without having to have some supercilious pedant lecture you on the obvious, that training is in fact not the same as "the real thing". (Which might explain the whole "different name" thing.)

:rolleyes:
 
To put things the other way around, to the people who says that IPSC or IDPA is no good for self defence, who would YOU meet, in a gunfight, the IPSC guy who shoots 5000+++ rounds each year, and compete at high stress at matches several times a month, or the common thug?

warth0g
 
1 spray and pray 1 CC permit holder. Civilans have a much better shot fired to hit ratio than police. In one on one shootings. As far as each officer fired 10 or so rounds BG could only point gun a 1 person at a time so somebody had a clear unhurried shot . No cops are for most part just as much spray and pray as BG's Give them Wheel Guns and 1 bullet in pocket. Every body be safer.
 
I don't think anyone is saying that training is useless.
In fact I am saying just the opposite, you can NEVER train too much.

It's quite possible that most of you have seen at least one post from me somewhere where I say;

Practice Safe
Practice Hard
Practice Often

And I firmly believe those words.

But, I've never seen anyone shoot an IPSC or IDPA match with a S&W Centennial. And the one thing that none of the alphabet sports can teach you is how you will feel when Norman Numbnuts walks right up to you and from four feet away sticks a 4" blued RG Model 38S revolver in your face. The fact that you can see it's ONLY loaded with round nose lead bullets and not fang-face nytrillium wünder bullets will do absolutely NOTHING to make you feel better prepared. And that S&W Centennial in your front pocket will feel like it's a mile away.

Too many people only practice and learn the physical aspects of self defense.
To survive an armed encounter one must also be mentally prepared.
 
to cracked and browning.... take it from someone who has been under fire as a LEO- you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
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Thanks, but you don't know me.

I'm a big game hunter, I don't have bullets fly back at me, but have hunted animals that could stomp, gore, or claw me to death if I make a bad shot. I know what the adrenalin kick is. I know what its like for time to slow down, and my vision to become very narrow. I know what its like to have to make a split second choice on whether to make a shot while my heart is pumping 150 beats a minute. I've actually collapsed after such experiences because my legs wouldn't hold me up because they turned to jelly. It may not be as ninja-esque as your experience at being shot at once, but I do it every year, year-in and year-out. The key is to delay that response as long as possible. Not being mentally prepared and having the practice beforehand to have the confidence in your abilities brings on the negative aspects of the adrenalin rush before you even pull the trigger. I have countless hours of trigger time behind a rifle and most of the time can make the shot but I get terrible shakes afterward. The guys that rarely practice are the ones who get 'buck fever' and blow the shot. I can't equate shooting a deer or a bear with shooting a human- the latter I really never want to have to shoot, but I sure do understand what I'm talking about.
 
Cracked, your first post talked about IDPA as it related to stress and the statement "any IDPA shooter... would have plugged him in the first two or three shots", and you then referred to the physical demands and the stress level.... go back and look at what you posted. That was what my post referred to.
I don't know you, but was only referring to the statements you posted. I shot IDPA and can testify one has nothing to do with the other as far as stress or demands. Practice is practice and 10,000 rounds downrange is better then none, but it doesn't make you "ready for an actual gunfight". The closest thing available for training right now is simunitions. You know it won't kill you if you get shot, yet you will still react to the point of trying to not get shot because it does inflict pain. IDPA/IPSC brings out competitive stress and the desire to win and defeat the other shooters, simunitions at least gives you an idea of the true fight or flight syndrome.

As for hunting, I'll take my chances with a lion or an elephant over a gang banger with a mac-10 any day. both are stressful, but not the same.


It may not be as ninja-esque as your experience at being shot at once
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And being involved in a shooting is not what I would call "ninja-esque". while its going on you're scared like a little girl, screaming like an idiot on the radio for help and generally the farthest thing from "cool". Once its over there is a momentary second where you thank god, then there is a fear that comes over you as you know damm well that there is going to be a whole host of monday morning quarterbacks judging you for your actions, some mutants family asking "why didn't you shoot him in the arm?", other officers telling you what you did wrong, the trial by media, the wait for the balistics report that clarifies which of you may or may not have killed another human being; And to top it off you have to wait and see if one of your "friends" in the US attorney's office or the DA's office may or may not try to crucify you in order to gain a promotion in their ranks by putting up a LEO.

FWIW, I have been there more then once, at one point even asking for a temporary assignment off the street because it seemed a bad run of luck had me in the wrong place at the wrong time on more then one occasion. Lucky for me I had a supervisor that cared and knew a move like that would be detrimental to my carreer and denied it, instead making me "get back in the saddle".
Truth be known, every time it was over I felt worse at what was facing me then when I was in the middle of it. None were ruled a bad shoot by the agencies involved, but every time, I along with other agents, was sued by some mutants family.
Weeks of no sleep, weight loss, ulcers and family problems are not what I would consider "ninja-esque".
 
but have hunted animals that could stomp, gore, or claw me to death if I make a bad shot.
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But what happens if you don't take a shot at all?
Will they decide to encircle you and stomp, gore, or claw you to death so you cannot identify them? Do they know as well as you do that your closest backup is at least five long, lonely minutes away.
If you stop hunting them will they start hunting you?

Are you seriously saying that hunting big game is the same as suprising four thugs in an alley stealing car batteries?
One has a crowbar, one has a hammer, and one has a rather large fixed blade knife in a belt sheath? And all four are saying that YOU are not going to stop THEM from doing anything.

but I sure do understand what I'm talking about.
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Now you very well may know more about murdering dangerous game animals.
But you really don't know very much about the dangerous game of animals willing to murder you.

Thanks, but you don't know me.
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It's true that we don't know you. But if you seriously think your hunting exploits are the same...
Well then, maybe we know you well enough.
 
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