9 MM's and handloads

[Melvin]

I'm looking to buy another 9 MM and have about decided between a Glock and the CZ. The only thing I'm concerned about is reading that Glocks were not recommending handloads. Can anyone shed some light on this subject? Without using handloads my shooting is going to be greatly diminished.
Thanks Melvin

 

[Handy]

No gun manufacturer recommends handloads, Glock and CZ included.

Further, the Glock barreling tends to cause leading, so lead reloads are a no-no. Jacketed and plated are fine.

The other Glock issue is with unsupported cases and mainly the .40 cartridge. There is no similar issue with 9mm.


Reload 9mm with jacketed ammo and your Glock will shoot great.

 

[Coot]

Have you priced 9MM Parbellum ammo at Wallyworld (among others). I reload about everything I shoot, but for under $6.00 per box of 50, is it really worth the effort?

For a change, I kinda enjoy just leaving the 9mm brass on the ground...not have a stroke over the 3 pieces I can't find in the grass.

 

[BHP9]

Further, the Glock barreling tends to cause leading, so lead reloads are a no-no. Jacketed and plated are fine.

Handy I think you are a very intelligent person so this is not a flame but I would suggest you fire lead bullets out of a Glock before making such statements.

The old wives tale of Glocks and other weapons that have polygonal bores not being able to fire lead bullets accurately or safely is pure baloney.

True, if you let lead build up in any gun it will eventually blow up especially if you fire jackted bullets down the barrel in an attempt to clear out the leading. But lead can be fired out of polygonal bores with accuracy that is every bit as good as with conventional rifling. Why do I make this statement, because I have done it for years and I have not disappeared in a red puff of mist and I do not plan to in the near future either.

Polygonal bores actually lead less than conventional rifling but will not tolerate a build up of lead if you are to shoot it safely out of them. Now do not panic, the lead build up when using cast bullets even with the fastest burning rate of powder , good old bullsyeye, is slow enough that you can easily clean out the leading after firing as many as 200 rounds rapid fire even on a hot summer day. It is only when people get lazy and never clean their weapons that they may run into trouble.

I have shot a ton of lead out of Glocks in 9mm and have had no problems with safety or with accuracy. But here again I clean my weapons after I use them. Is it hard. No not at all. A simply scrub out with Hoppe's no. 9 and a .35 caliber rifle brush (notice I said rifle brush, it is faster than using the shorter pistol brush) and the small amount of leading comes right out, with no problem in less than a minute or two.

Lead is a lot easier on the rifling of auto pistols. Too many jacketed bullets actually enlarge the bore by eroiding it away and causing a corresponing loss in velocity, the last thing you need in the aenemic world of pistol velocities. Also a build up of copper in the bore is a lot harder to remove than a little leading unless you resort to drasticly harsh cleaners like Sweets that if not used properly can damage the bore. I personally never use the stuff.

As anyone knows that has used good lead bullets they take a back seat in accuracy to no jacketed bullets and are way cheaper to shoot especially when shooting large amounts of ammunition. I have never found a jacketed bullet that was a cheap to buy or make than lead bullets.

I think if you are looking for accuracy the CZ is the way to go. It also seems to have a long service life and aesthetically is a lot more pleasing than a hunk of plastic. It has not had the recalls that the Glock has had either. It was perfected design before it was marketed unlike the Glock was. I think it is the safer pistol to use considering the fact that the CZ does have a manuel safety. Although not recommended I have known people who under desperate circumstances even carried the CZ in the waist band without a holster, something that would be suicide with a Glock.

I own and shoot both the Glock and the CZ but the CZ wins hands down in the accuracy dept.

Although the stock CZ trigger pull is nothing to brag about it still beats the creapy trigger pull of the Glcok and of course unlike the Glock the CZ trigger can be gunsmithed to perfection and can break like Glass. And if you have the bigger bucks the CZ makes some pretty nice race guns that come with a single action only target grade trigger. Something not availble for in the Glock. I have tried the hand built competition trigger in the Glock and it was basically a failure compared to the Colt/Browning triggers that I have used.

P.S. my favorite lead load is a hard cast bullet made of 50 percent wheel weights and 50 per cent lynotype metal with 50/50 alox lube. It is the lyman 121 grain concial bullet last 3 numbers are 402. It was designed to feed even out of the finicky German Luger. It has been around for years and years. I have shot it out of about every 9mm ever made and although I do not recommend you do this I have even shot it out of Handy's dream gun the HK squeeze cocker with good accuracy. Remember the HK is a gas operated gun and thats why you should not use lead in it.

 

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Good reply's so far. It's a correct assumption to think that
NO manufactuer'er wants user's of their firearms to shoot
handloaded ammunition. However, I have had 0 problems
shooting hard cast lead bullet's from my SIG's: P220, P226,
or P228.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[Handy]

BHP9,

The leading issue is not fiction, it has resulted in more than a few bulged barrels over the years, including the weapons of a large PD, who were pretty pissed at Glock for not articulating the "reload" issue more clearly.

There are many things a careful reloader can accomplish if they take the time and care. Unusual bullet weights, +P loads and using lead where it has proved a danger in the past all qualify. You have personally chosen to take on the problem by ensuring that only hard cast lead goes through your Glock. Fine.

That is not the same as saying "lead works fine in Glock barrels". That would be a generalization, and a bad one to give to someone making an initial inquiry about 9mm reloading.

If I was just starting reloading, I would not like to have to listen to a lecture on Brinel hardness. If Melvin wants to get into casting and roll the bones with his pistol later, he can do the research and make that decision. But the broadest and safest statement that keeps people out of trouble is:

Avoid lead in Glock barrels.

 

[Zak Smith]

No lead in Glocks.

Here are some links to previous threads about shooting lead in Glocks:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=85148&highlight=MarkCO
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82&highlight=lead+glock+pressure
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=79570&highlight=MarkCO
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=75243&highlight=MarkCO

Go read the comments by MarkCO:
In particular:

I started out with a 33,000 psi round with a std dev of 719 psi. After 500 rounds with jacketed bullets, the pressure was 33,000 with a std dev of 823 psi.

After 50 rounds with lead, 34,200 psi, 100 rounds 35,100 psi, 150 rounds 38,800 psi, and at 200 rounds 41,000 psi, 300 rounds 45,000 psi.

So starting with a less-than-SAAMI load (33kpsi), after only about 150 rounds, it was at the limit of NATO/+P, and after 300 rounds it was almost in rifle territory (45,000 PSI).

That said, there isn't anything wrong with reloads in Glocks, as long as you load safely and avoid leading. Try West-Coast plated bullets, or Precision coated bullets for an almost-as-cheap alternative to hard-cast lead.

-z

 

[JPoe]

If you're shopping the Glock and CZ 9mm's, you really should consider the Springfield XD-9 as well. It's in roughly the same price range as the other two - and is an EXCELLENT gun. Love mine! Very good safeties, ergonomics and accuracy. You also have the option of legal factory hi-cap mags (XD40 mags will hold 15 rounds of 9mm and work great in the XD-9 - perfectly legal). The only negative thing I've read that holds any water whatsoever is that the standard finish is not as tough as Glock's Tennifer. I got the Bi-Tone model (stainless slide) so it's no big deal to me regardless.

Search here or look around at www.xdtalk.com for more info.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of those choices. Rent/shoot all of them if possible and then decide which one YOU like best. Good luck.

 

[BHP9]

I started out with a 33,000 psi round with a std dev of 719 psi. After 500 rounds with jacketed bullets, the pressure was 33,000 with a std dev of 823 psi.

After 50 rounds with lead, 34,200 psi, 100 rounds 35,100 psi, 150 rounds 38,800 psi, and at 200 rounds 41,000 psi, 300 rounds 45,000 psi.

This is nothing but pure baloney. In order to get this type of pressure the barrel would have had to be picking up a very large amount of leading.

Perhaps he was using undersize bullets that were very soft in nature or not properly lubricated.

After examining my glocks after firing as much as 200 rounds of hard cast bullets the leading was minimumal and actually about 75 per cent less than with conventional rifling.

AS pressure goes up it affects cases. There were no signs of hard extraction, blown or cratered primers, stuck cases or case seperation. All this occurs as pressures go over the limit. I have never experienced any of these signs when shooting lead in the Glock but as I have said I do clean the lead out after I fire them and the lead that is in them is only minimumal.

 

[Zak Smith]

As background MarkCO is a forensic materials engineer who studies this stuff for a living and has served as an expert witness. He has actually done the experiments and measured the pressure directly.

I don't have a dog in this fight - I don't shoot my Glocks that much anymore, and I normally shoot factory ammo through them anyway.

Here's the original thread on TFL: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82

Mark's original posts

This post might make some people mad, but that is okay. Here goes. First, I work as a forensics engineer (mechanical) and, professionally, I investigate failed products as an expert witness. I have conducted extensive testing on the issue of KBs in Glocks and especially the Lead issue. I have examined 14 blown Glocks to date (including one of my own). I have tested thousands of rounds in Glock barrels, aftermarket barrels and polygonally rifled pressure barrels. There are several factors at issue with Glock KBs. When related to the .40 it is a high pressure round and hot-rodding it will cause damage and injury. Heavier bullets are more likely to increase pressure due to reloading practices and quitre possibly handling of loaded ammo. Also the polygonally rifled (Glock) barrels do lead excessively causing increased pressure. I have conducted pressure testing with instrumentation and the pressure ramps up with each successive round of lead down the barrel. Lowering your velocity can actually increase the leading rate with some bullets. The laser Cast is not the answer either. It too leads, it has more gas cutting and may appear to not lead quite as much but you are still decreasing the cross-sectional area of the bore by "soldering up the bore". Now the solutions. Either use plated bullets ($12 more per 1K) or buy an aftermarket conventionally rifled barrel ($70-$200). Also, my test data has been confirmed by Glock reps and armorers and accepted into court as fact! Points to take with you. The 40 is a high pressure round to start with. Glocks and Lead lead to higher pressures. Heavy lead bullets at pretty high velocities accounted for KBs in 11 of the 14 Glocks I have examined. I personally have aftermarket barrels for lead but use Berry's plated bullets in Glock barrels almost exclusively. I avoid the heavier bullets in my reloads and in factory ammo (definately no 200 grainers in the 40 for me in a Glock). I shoot Cor-bons 150 grain in my G27 for a carry round. Feel free to e-mail me if you want more info. Now for the other 3 blown Glocks. One was a G30 shooting a jacketed bullet. Got a double charge of Bullseye that was near max anyway. Case rupture split the frame, blew the mag out and sheared off one of the four guide rails. Barrel was undamaged and is still in use today. Shooter had a slight abrasion on his strong hand thumb and a blood blister on the palm (from the cracked frame) and a wet pair of shorts. Another one was a G19 that had approximately 1500 rounds of commercial lead fired through it. Near chamber bore dimension due to leading was 0.323 inches after the KB. Cracked the frame, split the chamber horizontally for a depth of about 0.5 inches. Slide assembly lifted up and jammed bending 3 of the four slide rails but no breakage of the frame. Glock owns that one now. The other was a G22 (this one was mine, about 8 years ago) shooting 155 grain lead (about 16.5 BHN that was supposed to be 22 BHN) at moderate speeds. About 700 rounds fired since last cleaned. Failure similar to other lead and Glock failures except with a 155 grain slug. Slightly cracked chamber, one cracked rail and one bent rail. Glock determined excessive leading as cause of failure. Glock replaced the gun. Interesting thing to note here, 14 blown Glocks and the worst injury besides soiled shorts and bruised confidences, a blood blister and a sprained finger here and there. Not one slide separation and not one grenaded chamber. Can not say that for other blown guns I have examined. A blown Beretta or a blown 1911 is sure to severly injured. Glocks are very strong indeed. I have seen a couple of other blown Glocks but did not have the chance to examine them. One of these was reportedly a .40 (G23 belonging to a Cop) shooting Fiocchi FMJ departmental practice ammo. Somehow the remaining loaded rounds in the mag had the bullets seated 0.11 inches deeper than the rounds left in the box. It was the 3rd round in the mag that blew and the cases from the prevoius 2 were buldged extremely. The case is in litigation. Good Shooting, MarkCO

I wanted to raise one more issue here about Glock KBs. The aftermarket dual recoil assemblies can also induce KBs. Yes, it is true that the Baby Glocks have a dual spring set-up from the factory but they are not the same design nor do they work in the same manner. I have tested a few of these (I have never fired a Glock with one of these) mechanically including dry firing and firing over primered cases. Some of these systems will actually bring the slide out of batterey when the tirgger is pulled. Some are worse than others, but, I have seen several of these cause damage to guns and shooters. Some also affect the pressure curves. This may actually be more dangerous than the lead issue since the strength of the gun is not available to contain the energy. I omitted this in my first post because I wanted to check a few things and I can not give specifics of the cases I have seen. Even stronger than my warning against using lead in Glocks, DO NOT use these aftermarket recoil reduction systems! Good Shooting, MarkCO

Steve, there are several issues related to guns that I know a little about, this issue, I know a lot about. Not only have I worked on it professionally, but it is a hobby too. I used several methods to measure pressure including Oscilloscopes and FFT, transducers, strain guages, piezo electroincs, etc. I never saw peak pressures deviate by more than 2000 psi round to round and with jacketed, no more than 1200 psi round to round. 5,000 psi variations imply large velocity variations on the order of more than 100 fps. That is way too much. When I quote numbers, I have used conventional statictal methods or standard mathematical analysis to determine them. I started out with a 33,000 psi round with a std dev of 719 psi. After 500 rounds with jacketed bullets, the pressure was 33,000 with a std dev of 823 psi. After 50 rounds with lead , 34,200 psi, 100 rounds 35,100 psi, 150 rounds 38,800 psi, and at 200 rounds 41,000 psi, 300 rounds 45,000 psi. The last few started to have greater std devs approaching 2000 psi, but the results are still statistically accurate. Notice this is NOT linear. Also the velocity started to climb at about 5 rounds fired, by 50 rounds it was 40 fps higher than the first round. By 100 rounds it had climbed by about 90 fps. At 150 rounds, 80 fps higher and at 200 rounds it was about 30 fps higher. Velocitites are all averages with no std dev exceeding 30 fps. Also, realize that this was in controlled conditions with each charge hand weighed, and tight chambers in pressure barrels. Hope this satisfied your curiosity. Good Shooting, MarkCO

Steve, I'll try to answer your questions in turn, if I can remember them all.

First, bullets. All in .40 S&W BTW. I ran tests with Hornady, Professional Shooters Products, Colorado Cast, Bull-x, Oregon Trail, Impact, Legend, A-zone, E & E, National and a few hand-mades. Weights were from 135 grain up to 200 grain. I ran all of my tests with the Impact 180 grain SWC to establish a baseline. I ran the others more sporadically to compare against my baseline. I also ran more extensive tests on the A-zone (the softest decent bullet with BHN of 16.5) and the Oregon Trail (the hardest with BHN of 23.9) to make sure I bookended my results so to speak. I tried to stick with a FP or light SWC profile, but not all were available. I also compared the bevel-base designs against the flat-based designs. I also did extensive testing of the bullets for composition, concentricity, weight, hardness, and other physical properties.

Second, I have seen moderate spikes with the jacketed after lead practice, however, my pressure barrel was much stiffer and that could have some effect on the spikes. The "pushing the dam" effect is really what scares me and I never tried after more than 25 lead rounds.

Third, In my "standard rounds" (pf of about 165) I get a bulge of about 0.0001". By contrast, the Cor-bons buldge is like 0.0015" Accordingly, I do not reload the fired Cor-bon cases. I have some .40 brass with more than 15 firings on it. One case mouth split so far, total. In my IPSC loads (pf of 185), bulge is about 0.0004" and I fire them 3-4 times and downgrade them to my steel loads which do not expand them at all (pf of 135).

Third, yes reloading is dangerous. But so is driving a car. Do things to protect yourself like always visually checking powder level before seating the bullet, double checking charges, etc.

See the original thread for the full discussion.

 

[9x19]

BHP9,

For what its worth, I agree with you completetly as I have been shooting 9mm Glocks for a good while, using both hard cast lead and plated (Rainier) bullets. I have fired in excess of 400 rounds of hard cast lead reloads without cleaning, using Win brass, SP primers and Accurate #5 powder, and have never had a pressure problem, or even any indication of excess pressure (difficult extraction or case signatures).

You'll never get most of these folks to believe it though. :banghead:

The "old wives tale" is too well entrenched.

 

[BHP9]

I read Marko's post and he was basically talking about the .40 S&W cartridge that has been known to blow up with heavy bullets of lead or jacketed ammo. Even when using factory jacketed ammo there has been documented cases of blow ups in Glocks and other makes of pistols.

I was speaking of the 9mm not the troublesome .40 S&W.

Many times pistols will let you know way in advance if you are not doing something right with your handloads.

A case in point: Many, Many years ago when I really was a wild man I decided to load up some super hot 90 grain loads in a Browning 9mm "High Power". Now most people do not know this but the words "High Power" actually mean the pistol is capable of some very high pressures. I got into the craze back in the 60's that was started by Lee Jurras when he marketed his Super Vel loads and I decided to make some hot loads up that would duplicate or exceed his hot 9mm 90 grain loads. Well I went out and fired these rounds ( I will not tell you what loads I used because you would not believe me anyway) and I shot a 6 volt lantern battery with them and with one shot and one shot only the battery was eviserated just as if it had been hit by an atomic bomb. I never did find the metal skin of the battery but did find some very small sand size carbon granuals from the battery.

When I got home I tried to resize some of the empty 9mm cases and the cases had swelled up to the point where they would not even go into the shell holder so they could be resized. Now that was what I call extemely excess pressure. If I had shot these loads through any other pistol except the High Power , say one that had generous throating like the Glock (which back then did not exist) the rear end of the case would have blown out.

The point to all this is that if you know what to look for, like swelled cases, hard extraction , cratered primers , blown out cases , pierced primers, violent ejection, rims being chewed up or ripped off etc., all of this is pointing to some very high pressures.

To state this all once again I so far have experienced none of this when shooting lead reloads out of Glocks, HK's, Walther P99's and a host of other more conventional 9mm pistols despite some guns that gave more leading than is normally found when shooting this type of lead cast bullet.

I would imagine that shooting plated bullets that are copper plated would actually lead even more than lubed lead bullets because the thin copper plating is scrapped off the bullet in the first inch or so of travel which lets the unlubed bullet drag itself over the unlubed rifling. The copper itself also acts as a magnet in attracting even more lead build up. And of course the faster the lead builds up over the copper the more inaccurate the grouping of the gun not to mention the build up of pressure. I will stick with lubed bullets anyday over copper plated lead bullets.

 

[RON in PA]

My only comment about this is that when I loaded for 9x19 I used 124 gr Ranier plated bullets with AA#7 loaded warm, but not hot. In my Glocks this load worked fine with no signs of excess pressure or fouling over thousands of rounds. Note I said "when I loaded" because I don't load for 9x19 anymore, with WW white box and/or S&B it doesn't pay.

As for Hi-Power meaning capable of high pressures, well maybe compared to a 32 ACP or .380, the usual European cartridges of the time. If you want to shorten the life of a Hi-Power shoot hot ammo and retire your pistol at an early age. My understanding is that 10,000 rounds of NATO ball will do in the HP.

 

[Navy joe]

Yes you can shoot lead out of a Glock if you are careful. Yes you will have problems if you are not careful. I carry my Glocks home from the matches with +p GDHP in them, would it be wise for me to shoot a 200 rd match and then do that before I had a chance to scrub? Same with range visits, I don't like the idea of my gun being unfunctional until cleaned.

The biggest problem I have with lead advocates is that they are in abundance to tell you how great it is when things are good. If they blow up a pistol in their face few will be man enough to hope on a board and proclaim to any that ask about lead of their misfortune. The net result is that casual readers get a skewed view that leads is safe to shoot.

More simply, just shoot plated bullets, they're cheap.

 

[JohnK]

I reload about everything I shoot, but for under $6.00 per box of 50, is it really worth the effort?

If all you reload is ammo to duplicate the cheap $6 Wal-Mart stuff then I'd say you're on target and it's not really worth it. But if you reload to duplicate that $22 / box Corbon (or whoever) defense ammo then it is.

 

[Zak Smith]

BHP9,

There are a lot of variables present. I don't know what all combinations MarkCO tried in his experiments. I'd love to be able to run my own tests, but proper pressure measurement equipment is quite expensive, and particularly not easy to install on an auto.

With regard to smokin' 90gr loads, even the most current Vihtavuori manual publishes loads out to 90gr @ 1530fps. Their 1st and 2nd editions went considerably further. Without a good use for the really fast 90's, I settled on a small-game load of a 90gr Gold Dot at about 1400fps.

regards
Zak

 

[BHP9]

I reload about everything I shoot, but for under $6.00 per box of 50, is it really worth the effort?

I could not shoot if I was paying this much for a box of ammo. This is not a joke. I shoot a tremendous amount of ammo out of pistols thats why I make lead bullets for about a penney and a half apiece. You can figgure out the rest. If you buy your components wholesale and in bulk lots, the price of powder and primers goes way down.

The $6.00 a box stuff would make myslef and my colleagues choke if we had to spend this kind of big bucks on ammo.

Hows less than $2.00 a box sound? It is possible with handloads with your own home made cast bullets.

 

[HankB]

The $6.00 a box stuff would make myslef and my colleagues choke if we had to spend this kind of big bucks on ammo. Hows less than $2.00 a box sound? It is possible with handloads with your own home made cast bullets.

Kudos to you for handloading - I used to do 9mm's myself back when I was in school.

But I'm just curious - how much is your time worth?

If you include time spent picking up the brass (quite troublesome at outdoor ranges), inspecting it, sorting it, cleaning it, and loading it (even on a progressive) it becomes a significant time investment.

And since you cast your own bullets, you have to include melting the alloy, casting the bullets, inspecting them, sizing & lubing . . .

Not to mention set-up and clean up time . . .

To save less than $4 a box, how much are you "paying" yourself per hour?

 

[BHP9]

To save less than $4 a box, how much are you "paying" yourself per hour?

I guess it all depends on how much money you have and how much you like to shoot. $4.00 a box adds up real fast when you shoot in excess of 6,000 rounds a year just in 9mm alone, not counting all the other pistol calibers I shoot which includes cast rifle bullets as well.

Besides if I was not reloading or casting bullets the old lady would make me mow the lawn or take out the trash and I would rather face a firing squad than do that.