91/30 shoots to the left and right

[UnderTheBigSky]

My Izhevsk 91/30 shoots to the right without bayonet and to the left with the bayonet. It (or I?) do this consistently at fifty and one hundred yards (only ranges tested). This doesn't change much with ammo. Surplus, PPU, Winchester, hand loads... doesn't change much. Looking for some guidance on how to change this? Could this be shooter error or something with my sights? It seems that since the bayonet pulls the groups to the left that is a weight/harmonics issue. Any help really appreciated!

Thanks, Ben

 

[TrickyDick]

You seem to pinpoint the problem in your OP. Adjust accordingly, there's really no fixing it. I personally would sight it in without the bayonet since i would probably never use it while shooting. Either do with or without the bayonet, then go from there.

 

[ford8nr]

Usually the bayonet affects up down impact. I've seen Mosins change by 6 - 8" at 100yds. Usually high without.

 

[HexHead]

They were sighted in at the factory with the bayonet affixed. Soviet doctrine at the time was the only time the bayonet was removed was if in a vehicle. Scabbards weren't issued.

Famous quote from a Soviet General, "The bullet is foolish, the bayonet wise".

 

[JMDeeDeeDee]

If you are able to get the gun as steady as possible (gun-vice or sandbags) find out where it is consistently off without the bayonet. Then use a hammer and punch to carefully drift the front sight until you are on target. Then, if you really feel the need to fire it with the bayonet you will just have to learn where it shoots and use good old "Kentucky Windage" to account for it.

 

[DPris]

Quit shooting with the bayonet fixed & just zero it for shooting without.

The bayonet will ALWAYS affect the zero.
Don't use it.
Denis

 

[BCRider]

For giggles I fitted the bayonet and shot it after zeroing both front and rear without the bayonet. The side mounting most certainly does affect the windage.

And as mentioned since you'll likely be shooting mostly without one just zero the rifle by drifting the front sight.

 

[UnderTheBigSky]

I hadn't thought about moving the front sight. A few months ago (when I had just gotten the rifle) I was curious about adjusting the sight and tried to bang it out of place and it wouldn't budge! Any advice on how to adjust it without banging it all the way out or making it really loose? May be a dumb question...

Also, are there any sights that you can replace the rear sight with that are windage adjustable? I intend to hunt with the open sights and have a fully adjustable rear sight would be helpful. I noticed that it is easily removed by punching out one pin. I have tried to find new manufacture ones online but no luck. Everyone wants compensators, recoil pads, and scope mounts that don't work. Almost as infuriating as the lack of load data.

 

[BSA1]

Strange. My 1944 91/30 shoots straight with bayonet attached. My only issue is it shoots high with the cast lead bullet and mild powder charge. I finally got the sight adjustment and reload to agree at 50 yds. so I am going to start working at 100 yds.

Some guns are just meant to have the bayonet attached.

 

[carbine85]

Mosin sights suck and need some work.
I have one with a Smith front sight post and corrected the windage and elevation for 100-200 yards.
I have a M44 with the Mojo Peep sights. That's probably the best Mil Surp iron sight up I have.

 

[dprice3844444]

try a smaller bayonet.check the forearm fit near muzzle.might need upward pressure.

 

[BCRider]

Now THERE'S a concept... Windage adjustments via variable weight bayonets! ! ! ! !

UTBS, look at the base and you'll see that there's a dovetail mount as part of the barrel and the sight pin is in the upper part. Some of these can be VERY tight. So clamp the barrel and base portion in a bench vise with support for the rest of the rifle so it's not cantilevered out off the muzzle. Now you can use a punch to give the upper pin carrier a good love tap firm in the knowledge that the base and barrel won't give.

No bench vise? Even one of the better clamp on vises is better than nothing. But really? No bench vise? I'd say you NEED a treat. Go buy one. I can't imagine doing much more than trimming my toenails without a good bench vise. To paraphrase the Frank's Red Hot sauce ad "I use that thing for EVERYTHING!".

BSA, it's pretty standard that the front pin is too short. I guess soviet troops were supposed to engage from at least 100 yards and aim for the 'nads in order to get a mid chest hit.... I made new pins up from suitable size finishing nails. The head gets filed in the hand drill to match the base cone and the new pin gets cold blued. Don't quote me but I THINK that I used 1.5" finish nails for the two pins I made. I know that I had to also thin the diameter down a touch with that file as well. It was only a couple of thou but it needed doing. I made my new pins about 1/16 longer and that worked out well.

 

[herrwalther]

The Russians had a love obsession with bayonets, so the Mosins with non-removable pick stickers were zeroed with them extended. Take it off if you can, or rezero with it folded away. But you would like mighty funny shooting with your bayonet out all the time.

 

[TenDriver]

Strip it down, sand the bed of the stock and hand guard til it's as smooth as a baby's butt. That is the only thing I did to my '36 Tula and it breaks clays at 200 yds with surplus ammo.

 

[carbine85]

Another problem with these effecting the accuracy is the hard crunchy triggers and most of them have a lot of copper fouling.
Wipe-out will cure the copper fouling problem if yours has any.
Triggers improvements are easy to do on these things.
Using some rubberized cork gasket to dampen the harmonics helps.

 

[HexHead]

The Russians had a love obsession with bayonets, so the Mosins with non-removable pick stickers were zeroed with them extended. Take it off if you can, or rezero with it folded away. But you would like mighty funny shooting with your bayonet out all the time.

It was easier to teach peasants to stick someone with a bayonet than to shoot. Hence that quote I posted.

 

[Float Pilot]

Try a folded paper or aluminum foil shim in the barrel channel near the forward end.

 

[Bugelson]

Famous quote from a Soviet General, "The bullet is foolish, the bayonet wise".

It was easier to teach peasants to stick someone with a bayonet than to shoot. Hence that quote I posted.

Well, the quote is not from Soviet era but from early 19th century Imperial era. When bayonets actually still were quite useful in combat.

But they sure loved their bayonets also in the RKKA.

 

[UnderTheBigSky]

BCRider, thanks for the idea. I actually don't have a vise and have spent most of my extra money on a shotgun, ammo, and some reloading equipment this summer or I would definitely get one! The biggest issue then would be finding something to mount it to. I don't have a work bench :banghead: (I am a college student, I live in a one bedroom basement apartment). I am definitely going to attempt to adjust the front sights. Definitely for use WITH bayonet because I love it.

herrwalther, mine is a M91/30 not a M44.

carbine85, I know that the peep sights are not standard on M44. are those adjustable, how much do they cost? will they work on a 91/30? Also the copper fouling you mentioned was interesting to me because my cleaning patches typically have some blue in them. no rust though. I will try to eradicate this. Thanks for the input.

TenDriver, I definitely did not sand down the stock bed. I guess that makes for a closer fit between the wood and steel? never thought of that. Hitting a clay at 200 yards sounds REAL nice though haha.

dprice and Float Pilot, I might sand down the bed like TenDriver suggested and if it doesn't look tight I may put something between the barrel and forearm.

Thank you all so much, I will be hunting with this rifle this fall and it would be nice to point it at something 200 yards away and only have to worry about elevation.

 

[herrwalther]

herrwalther, mine is a M91/30 not a M44.

I was speaking in general about all Mosins that have bayonets. I have a 91/30 as well but have never put the bayonet on. When I start working on loads for it it will be zeroed without the bayonet.

 

[UnderTheBigSky]

Sorry about that I thought you meant I had an M44. Maybe umm... A ways down the road all of firearm money for the next year or so will be put towards getting set up for a couple of handguns when I turn 21 next summer. I would love to have an M44 though. Mainly because you can fold the bayonet back! I wish the 91/30 did the same. I hate scraping the blueing off.

 

[BCRider]

So you're going to shoot it WITH the bayonet?

GOOD FOR YOU! ! ! !

Mind you now I feel like some sort of pansy for shooting mine without one....

For bumping a nasty sight often times it's enough to have a big weight that gives the inertial resistance. Mind you this is very much second best to a properly mounted bench vise. But as a struggling student in rental accommodations I guess I'll cut you some slack

Anyway for now get a clamp on vise that can be attached to just about anything it'll fit over. It's not a substitute for a proper bench and vise but for your situation you'll find that it's super handy for tinkering on you firearms and any other crafts or activities. It will also provide the all important rigidly attached mass you need for doing things like drifting somewhat stuck sights.

 

[UnderTheBigSky]

I just find the gun so steady from the shoulder with the bayonet attached that I always find myself putting five through it and then putting on the bayonet. And when it comes down to it, it's like having a rifle and a spear. Something I only could have dreamed of as a little kid. HA.

I'll check out the clamp on vise. I need some c clamps for my shotshell reloader anyways.

 

[1911 guy]

Heh. Boomstick with spear attached. That shoots fireballs. I may need to get one finally.

 

[BCRider]

If you're looking at clamping the shotshell reloader to a table temporarily for use then you could consider buying a small bench vise and bolt it to a hunk of 3/4 plywood or similar and use the same clamps to hold it down when needed. Just don't use wafer board, strand board, particle board or MDF as it's too easily broken up.

You can also make up jaw protectors from things like aluminium sheet and leather to pad the jaws so you don't mark the gun but still hold it firmly.

Anything for a vise is better than nothing. But if you have your druthers and don't mind bolting it to a clamping board I'd suggest something that weighs around 10lbs. More would be better but a 10lb'er will act with enough inertia to allow you to easily punch out dowel pins and drift even the most sticky sights by providing a solid and not easily moved support.

Trust me, for tinkering with guns and other things it'll soon become your best bud. It's like the buddy with the steady hand there where you need it. And best of all you don't need to buy it beer and pizza afterwards...