9mm accuracy, and an accurate 9mm

[DOUBLEDTX]

I have several 9mm that I consider accurate, but recently I picked up a tristar T-120 and shot a one hole group at 15 yards with no effort.

 

[ggamyang]

Cz85 combat

 

[GLOOB]

I can't speak for all 9mm's, but the ones I own (Glocks, both stock and aftermarket barrels) have more generous chambers in both the amount of leade/freebore (well known, and not the case for 9mm in general) and in the area of the chamber around the casemouth (I dunno if this is a more general issue or if it is also specific to Glocks), as compared to their 40SW and 45ACP counterparts (Glock and other models, included). I know this because I reload for them. I don't need to crimp my 9mm ammo, and they still drop right in the chamber. If I don't crimp for my other Glocks, the rounds are too big.

I feel like I shoot my 40/10mm and 45ACP glocks a little more accurately. I also feel like my G27 is more accurate with the stock barrel compared to the aftermarket 9mm conversion barrel. I got that impression before I made the observations on the chamber differences.

That's a really small example, but it makes me wonder if the standards for 9mm ammo are a little looser than 45ACP or 40SW to where chambers are generally cut a little looser.

There's also well known variance in the bore dimension between modern 9mm handguns. Some being as small as .355 while other are as large as .358. The 9mm is notorious amoung handloaders for this amount of disparity that is so common it is expected. In other calibers, this amount of variation is rare.

There's also an issue of barrel twist rate. For some reason, most 9mm makers have settled on 1:9" or 1:10" twist for 9mm. If you used the same formula as other calibers, the twist rate for 9mm should be much slower. It is somewhat unclear why 9mm is an oddball. For instance, 38/357 prototypical twist rate is around 1:18". I have read that some makers use a twist as low as 1:24 for 9mm. But seems like all the major European manufacturers settled on 1:9-10, and American manufacturers have largely followed suit. For comparison, a very common 40/45 twist rate is 1:16". Once you get a high enough twist to stabilize a bullet, any higher is generally considered to be bad for long range accuracy.

So while I don't see any reason the 9mm cartridge, itself, would be any more or less accurate than say 40SW, I can see how this could be the case for the platforms used to fire 9mm, in general.

 

[giggitygiggity]

My P226 and Beretta 92FS certainly have accuracy on par with my Colt Combat Elite .45ACP and Springfield Range Officer .45ACP.

 

[Saleen322]

The 9mm can shoot well but my experience has been it takes more effort to get the accuracy out of a 9mm than a 45. Getting match level accuracy out of a 38, 32 or 45 has always been easier for me than a 9mm. Again, the 9mm can shoot but you have to work at it.

 

[SFsc616171]

A 9mm pistol, out of the box, is more accurate than the human behind it, if it is not a junk company.

I have two Browning Hi Powers, one a Belgian, and the other a MKIII. The ORIGINAL design spec's were for the 1935, P-35 pistol, in 9mm, shooting a circa 1935 9mm 124 grain full metal jacket factory loading, to hit the area of the inside of a standard coffee mug at 50 meters.

 

[mboylan]

The AMU uses hotly loaded 115 gr rounds in stiffened Berreta. They shoot under an inch at 50 yards.

 

[bc1023]

Historically it seems target pistols (revolvers or semiautomatics) favor the .38 Special and.45 ACP cartridges.

Can the 9mm compete with them for bullseye accuracy? And, if so, what's an accurate 9mm handgun -- revolver or semiauto?

You have to expand your knowledge a bit. There are tons of very accurate target 9mms.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Can the 9mm compete with them for bullseye accuracy? And, if so, what's an accurate 9mm handgun -- revolver or semiauto?

Yes it can. There are a ton of highly accurate 9mm guns out there. My current favorite are Beretta 92 Series guns. They are just plain fun to shoot.

As far as being "inherently" accurate, I think it's more a matter of having quality ammo, in a quality gun, and a particular powder charge and bullet weight that your gun shoots well, rather than any sort of naturally born accurate cartridge.

 

[Delmar]

I have owned a few and shot some other 9MM's from Browning, Walther and Beretta and all of them gave good accuracy.

In competition with stock pistols, depending on the discipline might be the reason you don't see a lot of 9s in bulls-eye shooting for example. The 9 might be just as accurate as say, a 45ACP, but with the larger caliber, you stand a better chance of touching the higher scoring ring assuming the bullet landed in the same place. As the 9 becomes more popular, the drift is going to the smaller caliber because its less tiresome holding up a lighter 9 than it is the larger caliber.

 

[Stumper]

There are some cartridges which are more inherently accurate than average.(For example. .32 long.38 special. .44 Russian, 44 special and .44 magnum are known to have above average potential accuracy in revolvers. Th PPC benchrest cartridges were actually designed for max POTENTIAL accuracy from a bolt action rifle. The actual accuracy of a particular firearm/cartridge combo is always a shoot and see proposition-every gun is a law unto itself. That being said, the 9x19 does not make the list for max INHERENT accuracy but it is not a problematic cartridge that fights against accuracy(there have been a few such as the .32-20). It is pretty easy to find 9mm gun and load combos that are more accurate than even above average shooters.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Out of my 210's yes it can be accurate.

As a reloader, I would comment that 9mm is capable of good accuracy, but it is a touchy round relative to say the 45acp or 38 special for accuracy. Its simple physics. The 9mm is a high pressure, small case so there is less "slop" for variations in the 9mm. A bit extra powder, a slightly lighter bullet, a bit more brass in the case, etc. These type of variations change your velocity of your bullet and impact the accuracy more then in say the 45acp where you have a bigger bullet, lower pressure, etc.

The same can be said for the 10mm vs. the 40S&W. The 10mm is known for its accuracy, the 40S&W not as much.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

There are some cartridges which are more inherently accurate than average.(For example. .32 long.38 special. .44 Russian, 44 special and .44 magnum are known to have above average potential accuracy in revolvers. Th PPC benchrest cartridges were actually designed for max POTENTIAL accuracy from a bolt action rifle. The actual accuracy of a particular firearm/cartridge combo is always a shoot and see proposition-every gun is a law unto itself. That being said, the 9x19 does not make the list for max INHERENT accuracy but it is not a problematic cartridge that fights against accuracy(there have been a few such as the .32-20). It is pretty easy to find 9mm gun and load combos that are more accurate than even above average shooters.

For my own knowledge, what exactly makes a particular cartridge more "inherently" accurate than others? I'm asking, not being snide.

I'm a firm believer that with proper rifling in the barrel, a quality revolver or semiautomatic that is built to tight tolerances, and with a quality example of a particular cartridge, any cartridge can be fired accurately. Particular bullets are harder to stabilize certainly, but with the right barrel, it can be done.

I guess what I'm saying is that the word "inherent" is often applied to a cartridge. In the end, all center fire cartridges consist of a bullet, a casing, powder, and a primer. Inherent accuracy does not exist when it comes to cartridges. It can only exist in firearms, and firearm designs, as that is the real variable being discussed.

Now, inherently more accurate loadings can certainly exist based on bullet diameter, shape, powder choice, powder quantity. However, that is still based on the current available platform's to fire it.

If I'm missing something, please share. I don't role my own loads, so I admit I may be off on this. Maybe, I should start a different thread on the subject.

 

[anothernewb]

All I can say is I have to shoot my 38's or 9's a lot more carefully to knock the black out of a target. 45 just makes those really big holes...

 

[Stumper]

460, You are correct that the individual firearm is critical to accuracy. With a given firearm their will be some specific loads that shine.When speaking of "inherent" accuracy of cartridges/chamberings we are talking about planned design criteria(such as the PPC rounds) or happy coincidences that make some cartridges "easier" to achieve a high degree of accuracy. This doesn't mean that a particular firearm and load of a not particularly"inherently accurate" cartridge can't trounce lots of the "inherently accurate" chambered guns. However some chamberings are known to be very non-critical regarding bullet weights and powder charges to achieve accuracy. Other cartridges have a deserved reputation of being difficult or even exasperating. For instance the 32-20 that I mentioned-There are guys who have shot beautiful tight groups with a 32-20 revolver...but the same gun, same brass, same bullet weight and a different powder loaded to achieve similar velocity scatters shots all over the paper. OTOH most decent .38 specials will shoot reasonably well with any load and spectacularly well with some. It is an easier/more inherently accurate cartridge. The 9x19 is a tremendously efficient cartridge (small charges for top performance) and is not problematic in achieving adequate accuracy for most purposes.....but it is harder to get it to shoot all the bullets through the same hole than a .38 special or a .45 ACP

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Stumper,

This topic and discussion was interesting to me enough to start a different thread. I didn't want to hijack this one.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=774598

There has been some interesting points made that touch on the items you mentioned. The notion makes more sense to me now, but there seems to be some disputes. I welcome you to head on over and throw your two cents in. I'm just kind of stepping back and letting the folks who know more about cartridge loading and construction hash it out.

 

[Saleen322]

Stumper pretty much nailed it and the PPC is an excellent example of inherent accuracy. When you are putting thousands of dollars into a match gun, there is a reason why they go 6 PPC vs. say a 243 Win; the 6 PPC will shoot a little better 99 times out of 100.

To get back to the 9mm, here are two groups shot standing @ 25 yards from a 952 Smith, a high-end 9mm. Same bullet, same powder charge, same case, same primer just a seating depth change of about 0.035". Again, the 9mm will shoot but it is just not as easy to get a good load as a 45 or a 38. You have to work more to get good accuracy from the 9.

 

[tallpaul]

I can hit a frying pan at 240 yrds with a Sig 239 in 9mm. Naturally not every shot, but the gun and the round are capable. Check my youtube channel for details.

that is not a sign of accuracy... consistently hitting it may be...

 

[45_auto]

I can hit a frying pan at 240 yrds with a Sig 239 in 9mm. Naturally not every shot, but the gun and the round are capable. Check my youtube channel for details.

I can hit a frying pan at 240 yards with any gun ever made that will throw a bullet that far. Maybe not every shot, but they're all capable.

 

[anothernewb]

Stumper pretty much nailed it and the PPC is an excellent example of inherent accuracy. When you are putting thousands of dollars into a match gun, there is a reason why they go 6 PPC vs. say a 243 Win; the 6 PPC will shoot a little better 99 times out of 100.

To get back to the 9mm, here are two groups shot standing @ 25 yards from a 952 Smith, a high-end 9mm. Same bullet, same powder charge, same case, same primer just a seating depth change of about 0.035". Again, the 9mm will shoot but it is just not as easy to get a good load as a 45 or a 38. You have to work more to get good accuracy from the 9.

seating depth made that much difference?

holy crap. guess I have more to play with then. This is an average target from my hi-power. 3.4 grains N320 124 grain bayou coated OAL 1.14. 50 feet offhand

 

[AustinTX]

double post

 

[AustinTX]

And, if so, what's an accurate 9mm handgun -- revolver or semiauto?

How much are you willing to spend? A number of posters have mentioned different current mass-production service pistols with very good accuracy, but you can definitely take things up a few notches if you're willing to spend more money.

Some of my Swiss SIG P210s have 50-meter (54.68-yard) test targets with groups measuring less than 1.5". The S&W 952 (out-of-production pistol from the Performance Center back when the PC was actually worth a damn) is also a very accurate 9mm. The Pardini GT9 is up at the top. A 9mm 1911 (which holds no appeal for me) from a semi-custom or custom shop that will guarantee five-shot groups of 1.5" or less at 50 yards is an option.

The most accurate 9mm pistol you can readily buy is probably a Beretta 92 given the Army Marksmanship Unit treatment by David Sams, who pioneered the accurizing of the Beretta 92 with the AMU. His builds are guaranteed to shoot a 10-shot group into 1.3" or less at 50 yards (and usually produce groups closer to 1"). These guns hold a number of records at Camp Perry.

 

[mboylan]

A 9mm pistol, out of the box, is more accurate than the human behind it, if it is not a junk company.

I have two Browning Hi Powers, one a Belgian, and the other a MKIII. The ORIGINAL design spec's were for the 1935, P-35 pistol, in 9mm, shooting a circa 1935 9mm 124 grain full metal jacket factory loading, to hit the area of the inside of a standard coffee mug at 50 meters.

There are plenty of bullseye shooters who can outshoot a standard combat pistol. There are probably thousands of people in the US who can shoot sub 3 inches at 25 yards.

 

[Saleen322]

There are plenty of bullseye shooters who can outshoot a standard combat pistol. There are probably thousands of people in the US who can shoot sub 3 inches at 25 yards.

True. So they want as accurate a pistol/ammo combo as they can get as the error in the pistol is added to their error.

 

[BCRider]

If 9mm is inherently tougher to load for accurate shooting I'd suggest it's related to the small case capacity. With such a small initial volume even slight variations in powder loads and seating of bullets are going to produce a greater effect on the consistency of the peak pressure when shot.