9mm vs 357 in compact handguns

[MCgunner]

So, you don't like my handload, buy the Buffalo Bore load from the factory, just as fast.

I developed that load for my Blackhawk for hunting from a magazine article 15 years ago. I don't shoot that load much, but when I do, it's in the Blackhawk, but I tested it in the SP101 and it's a strong little revolver. Buffalo Bore's factory data is from a 3" J frame and Buffalo Bore claims that ALL its loads are capable of being fired from any .357 chambered handgun including J frames.

From my 6.5" Blackhawk, that load clocks 1400 fps/785 ft lbs. It's only down 100 fps in the 2" SP101. I have shot a 200 lb hog with it from the Blackhawk, quite effective.

 

[R.W.Dale]

mes.

From my 6.5" Blackhawk, that load clocks 1400 fps/785 ft lbs. It's only down 100 fps in the 2" SP101.

As an experienced handloader think about that objectively for a minute.

Does that REALLY make any sense to you?

I think you have some erroneous data that you WANT to be true so you haven't double checked up on it.

 

[MCgunner]

It makes ultimate sense to me especially since Buffalo Bore gets similar results. What I DON'T quite know is how Buffalo Bore gets such good results from the 125 grainer in the 3" J frame. Out of the 2" SP101, I couldn't get 1200 fps from 18.0 grains 2400. Might well be the extra inch of barrel, though. What I conclude is that the light bullet accelerates out of the gun before the pressure peak. This was supported by the amazing fireball with the 125 grain stuff that got progressively less as I went up in bullet weight. I compromised on a 140 Speer over 17 grains 2400, a load I worked up to from the Speer number 11 manual years ago for a Security Six and still works well for me. It's more accurate than the 125 grainer I was shooting, too, and clocked over 1300 fps for 550 ft lbs. Heavier bullet I went to, the less affect the short barrel had on performance.

Conclusion, if you're going to carry a short barrel .357 for self defense, carry a heavier bullet, 140 or 158. You'll get less flash/bang and more performance.

 

[R.W.Dale]

So you think that 4.5" of barrel on a 357 magnum is only good for 100fps?

 

[MCgunner]

So you think that 4.5" of barrel on a 357 magnum is only good for 100fps?

When going from 2" to 6.5", yup, at least with a 180 grain bullet and AA#9. Load performance is variable. Best to chronograph/test and see what's best. If you don't chronograph your loads, you're "shooting in the dark", pardon the pun. You can't just quote some website as gospel. I don't quote Buffalo Bore as gospel, but I do use 'em to support my conclusions.

A short barrel .357 is very load dependent. I'm just telling you what I've found. Chose not to believe it if you wish. No sweat off me, I know what I know.

 

[MCgunner]

Here's the velocities from the BB web page. Check 'em out, supports what I'm telling you.

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1707 fps

5. 18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!

 

[SDGlock23]

I've chronographed factory 125gr .357 Mag Remington loads doing around 1450 fps from a 3" SP101 I used to have. Comparatively a rather warm 9mm load from a G19 can get a 124gr to do around 1250, so the .357 will always be faster.

From the 6" GP100 I was getting a little over 1500 fps with a 158gr SWC and 14.8gr of 2400, although I never chronographed that over the SP101, I'd imagine that it would still be doing at least 1300-1350 fps. The warmest 147gr I ever handloaded in a 4" G19 would barely break 1,100 fps.

Bottom line is that the .357 Mag is still more powerful from a shorter barrel than the 9mm from a rather long barrel.

 

[TestPilot]

I don't want to fire a full power 357 Magnum out of anything compact.

Of course, you have a choice of light load 357, but what is the point of carrying a 357 then, especially when you're shooting it out of a short barrel?

My 9mm P290 recoil is comparable to full power 357 Magnum shot out of a 3 inch barrel GP100. Even then, GP100 still recoils stronger. Food for thought.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Folks,

Those 900+ fps .357 loads are hokie. I bet they used +p .38s or real weak .357s.

Expect 2.25 inch full house .357s to make 1250 to 1300 from either a sp-101 or S&W 640. And from a 2 3/4 inch speed SIX the Buffalo Bore .38 158gr lswhp loads do get 1100 fps (I chronoed them myself).

No, using real .357 loads do surpass the 9mm loads BUT they do have controlability problems when doing so.

I use the .38 Buffalo Bore loads in my S&W snub .38s and .357s. And I don't feel under gunned.

Deaf

 

[Phaedrus/69]

FWIW I'll probably never buy another .357 Mag again unless the price is just awesome or the gun is a great deal. In all the years I had my old N-frame and K-frame Smiths I think I only put a few dozen Mags through them but thousands and thousands of rounds of .38 Special. I realize that in theory it's nice to be able to shoot the Mag loads but I almost never did.

Obviously that's just my deal. Lots of people do shoot full powered magnum loads a lot.

 

[Hunter2011]

Just some light reading, as this thread is now a caliber war
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/daniel-zimmerman/caliber-wars-stupid/#more-328363

 

[Lucky Derby]

Maybe the Rhino revolver also?

Just checked. The Rhino uses clips.

 

[Lucky Derby]

Charter Arms makes one in 9mm and 40 S&W.

http://www.shotgunnews.com/2013/07/09/charter-arms-pitbull-review/

I stand corrected. The Charter appears to have a system similar to the M547.

 

[Davek1977]

With the right load, it just ain't so

If you have to cherry pick a certain load to make your point, not much of a point is made, at least imo. With "typical" ammo, specialty loads notwithstanding, the comparison between compact 9mm autos and compact /357 revolvers is a very valid one.

 

[ljnowell]

If you have to cherry pick a certain load to make your point, not much of a point is made, at least imo. With "typical" ammo, specialty loads notwithstanding, the comparison between compact 9mm autos and compact /357 revolvers is a very valid one.

No, its not, unless you are cherry picking in favor of the 9mm.

 

[MCgunner]

If you have to cherry pick a certain load to make your point, not much of a point is made, at least imo. With "typical" ammo, specialty loads notwithstanding, the comparison between compact 9mm autos and compact /357 revolvers is a very valid one.

I'm just stating what the .357 is capable of and what the 9mm isn't capable of. You're cherry picking weak loads in .357 to make YOUR point. Some companies still load the .357 to its potential and Buffalo Bore is one of 'em.

I do agree that shooting a really hot load from a 12 ounce 340PD ain't my idea of bliss. However, the SP101 and its 27 ounces while being quite compact with a round butt profile full hand filling Hogue grip, is quite easily shootable with a hot 140 grain JHP load. I no longer have that SP101, kinda miss it, might get another some day. It was an impressive little gun. I sometimes carry my 3" Taurus M66, though, and it's a great shooting gun with even more heft. In a Don Hume JIT slide, the square butt Hogue tucks in pretty well. But, with a 3" barrel, it's not quite the "snubby" that the OP is talking about. It's around 34 ounces, though, and really tames the 140 grain hot load, is actually pleasant to shoot. I've shot a pig with it once, was my carry that day and all I had on me when I was walking my place. My ears survived it outdoors. I don't keep it loaded for home defense. So, yeah, the .357 does have down sides as a carry. I do have a pocket 9, 14 ounces, 11 rounds, fits in a pocket (Kel Tec P11) and puts a 115 grainer out the barrel at 1263 fps/410 ft lbs. Raw ballistics can't match a good load in .357, but I feel it's plenty of punch and a lot better than totin' a .380 as not quite 200 ft lbs with a puny little 90 grain bullet. It can ride all day comfortably in a pocket and is 3.5" at 25 yards accurate with its favorite load.

I never argued in this thread that the 9 isn't a good SD caliber, far from it! It's just not capable of performing with the .357 magnum, top loads compared, apples vs apples, not even in a 2" snubby. Heck, I could find a weak 9 and compare it to a weak .357 and I'd still win by cherry picking. But, compare apples to apples, hot load 9 to hot load .357.

 

[Hunter2011]

I scanned this page from a Man Magnum magazine of January 2002. So all the credit goes to the editor of Man Magnum.
This article shows that the .357 is indeed more powerful, but not by much in short barrels.

 

[greyghost01]

Some interesting reading is at gunthorp.com the article is Terminal ballistics as viewed in a Morgue. Just read it and make your own choice, Good Luck

As far as one shot stops the FBI report rates the 357M & 40 S/W #1 the 9mm is 8th out of 9 calibers

 

[Onward Allusion]

A 2" 357 mag as shown by BBTI would be like having a revolver with a 1/4" barrel

...and we have a winner...

To get to the correct BBTI barrel length for a 2" 357 barrel, you would have to look at the fps between 3" and 4" for the 357. Gotta keep in mind that the guys at BBTI used a T/C Encore.

Sooo...the fps for a 357 between 3 and 4 inches is somewhere around 1,250 to 1,500 fps for a 125 grain.

fps for a 9mm from a 4 inch barrel is somewhere around 1,200 fps for a 125 grain +P load.

Then there's the whole semi -vs- revolver debate... and what about capacity . . . reliability . . . simplicity . . .

Ahhhhh this stuff never gets old!

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Agreed. But why then do some say a 9mm is underpowered, but a .357 is more than good enough? It simply does not make sense to me. In longer barrels, then yes, but not in shorter barrels.

Because...chicken.

There are simply those who enjoy caliber wars, actual ballistics comparisons between similar caliber and mass not withstanding.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, the OP was straight up, no other consideration, which is more powerful, 2" snubby .357 or 9mm. He specificallly stated not to consider capacity and other things that might favor the 9x19mm platform. So, I say, straight up, apples to apples loads, no cherry picked loads, just the best +P 9 against a hot .357 like Buffalo Bore, .357 wins.

Does the .357 win by enough for you to put up with 5 or 6 shot capacity, the flash/bang of a magnum, the recoil, etc, that's another thread. I've found room in my collection for both. Currently, my .357 carry DOES have a 3" barrel. I do consider the pocket sized 9x19s like the Kahr/Ruger/Kel Tec/Taurus 709 slim etc to be about the perfect personal protection in a pocket or on a belt. Tiny, accurate, powerful, lots of firepower, like having a service auto in your pocket. The P11 carries up to 13 rounds and is pocket sized, only 14 ounces, recoil is quite manageable and the flash/bang is no where near the magnum snubby. It produces 1262 fps with a 115 grain +P. I don't see where one would need more for self defense and one could choose a lot less.


BUT, that wasn't the OP's question. It was straight up, which is more powerful. That is the .357 by a margin of at least 100 ft lbs according to my chronographing and Buffalo Bore's.

 

[Goosey]

From various sources:

.357 Mag

S&W 640, 125 gr Speer = 1187 fps
S&W 640, 125 gr Rem = 1163 fps
S&W 640, 125 gr Rem = 1059 fps
S&W 640, 125 gr Fed = 1201 fps
S&W 640, 125 gr CCI = 1097 fps
Ruger LCR, 125 gr Rem = 1245 fps
Ruger LCR, 125 gr Speer = 1210 fps
S&W 340PD, 125 gr Speer = 1090 fps

9x19mm

Para LDA, 115 Fed = 1075 fps
Para LDA, 124 Fed = 1071 fps
Kahr CM9, 115 Win = 1020 fps
Kahr CM9, 124 Win = 1053 fps
Kahr CM9, 124 Fed = 1069 fps
Spr. XD9SC, 124 Rem = 1079 fps


I don't think there's much difference. Which "wins" depends on the specific barrel lengths and loads but even then +/- 50, even +/- 100 fps, does it really matter?

 

[mavracer]

even +/- 100 fps, does it really matter?

Even in your own post many of the spreads are closer to 200 fps, as to an extra 10% velocity that's going to translate into the ability to do roughly 10% more damage.
If X amount of damage doesn't stop the BG and X+10% is enough then it could be a tremendous amount of difference.

 

[MCgunner]

And then there's the fact that .357 is capable of shooting heavier bullets to better energies, I mean, if you worry about penetration with expansion.

 

[Goosey]

Even in your own post many of the spreads are closer to 200 fps, as to an extra 10% velocity that's going to translate into the ability to do roughly 10% more damage.
If X amount of damage doesn't stop the BG and X+10% is enough then it could be a tremendous amount of difference.

Some more than others, I should note those aren't 9mm +P loads. In a short .357 a small fraction of barrel length can make a big difference though. As far as I can see a 1-7/8" .357 is practically the same as a 3.5" 9mm at least with the lighter bullets.

IMO any extra stopping power in those tiny .357s would be offset by the fact the .357 would have more recoil, more flash, more noise and less capacity than a compact 9mm.

SP101 2-1/4" - 125 Rem - 1298 fps
SP101 2-1/4" - 125 Fed - 1293 fps
SP101 2-1/4" - 125 Speer - 1242 fps

340PD 1-7/8" - 125 Cor. - 1149 fps
340PD 1-7/8" - 125 Fed. - 1170 fps
340PD 1-7/8" - 125 DbT. - 1169 fps

SR9C 3.5" - 124 Fed. - 1113 fps
SR9C 3.5" - 115 Cor. - 1230 fps
SR9C 3.5" - 124 Speer +P - 1177 fps

CW9 3.5" - 124 Fed. - 1120 fps
CW9 3.5" - 115 Cor. - 1267 fps
CW9 3.5" - 124 BlH. - 1178 fps