A double barrel shotgun is a machine gun!

[jhog1]

I would like to say hello I have been lurking for some time first time posting there is a lot of great info on here and I wanted to add my 2 cents to this post.
When a double barrel shotgun fires both barrels with one pull of the trigger it is called doubling. Both barrels don't actually fire at the same time, the recoil from the first round releases the defective lock on the second barrel. Even if it was intentional modified to fire both barrels with one pull of the trigger it would not be considered a MG since it is incapable of reloading the chambers "automatically"

 

[Master Blaster]

What this thread points out is that, the NFA laws are ridiculous.

The BATF has to make a whole bunch of assumptions, artificial constructs, and gyrations, to determine what is or is not technically a machine gun.

We have the stupid law because some criminals like Bonnie and Clyde, Ma Barker, and Machine Gun Kelly, used surplus machine guns they bought legally, to commit crimes and had the police outgunned. All this happened in the 1930's. So because of the actions of a few criminals, 70+ years ago all of us have had to pay.

If a criminal wants to make a machine gun they have no problem doing so, heck they can even smuggle them in accross the Mexican Border.

But since they are rarely used in crimes, along with silencers, its hardly ever been a problem and there is no practical reason for the laws to exist except to provide employment for a few hundred BATF agents.

 

[El Tejon]

Actually most machine guns then were stolen from the police.

John Dillinger got several Thompsons, BARs and shotguns from the Warsaw, Indiana police. Threw the Chief down the stairs and helped himself to the armory.

To answer the original question, no, a double barrel shotgun is not a machine gun. However, it may soon be deemed a Destructive Device by the Clinton Administration.

 

[JWarren]

You might check with the folks at Cylinder & Slide.
During the early eighties the made a weapon called and Ermu (I may be wrong about the name) that was basically two Remington 1100 or 870 shotguns (one right and one left hand action) bolted together on a common butt stock. There was a single trigger with a pair of cams on it that actuated the original triggers. They sold some to Second Chance competitors and a few to cops. The only difference is that there would have been 2 serial numbers / receivers if you wish.

I've seen a similar setup once. If my understanding is correct, those TWO serial numbers makes all the difference in the world.


Regarding a double-barrel firing twice on one trigger pull, it has always been my understanding that the ATF does in fact consider that a machine gun in their techinical definition. It would be enough to charge you if they wanted to, and I for one have no desire to be a test-case.

Before I modified a shotgun or constructed one to do this, you better believe I'd have in writing a ATF letter of clearance.

John

 

[EMUGOD]

I apologize if there is some rule about thread necromancy here, but i couldn't resist the temptation.

This topic is one that has become very interesting to me since i recently decided to build a volley gun. I have been trying to find the answer to this question, would it be a machine gun, for a few days. a very interesting piece of hardware is the attached picture, an 18x22LR 40mm volley cartridge. this is considered a destructive device like all 40mm rounds, but not a machine gun. It operates exactly like cpileri described.

my question now, that perhaps someone here might know, is what, if anything, legally defines a round of ammunition? i've already looked through the definitions section of the NFA and there is nothing, but perhaps it is in an earlier document? if the primer is not legally required but instead the round can just be activated mechanically, i may be in business!

 

[natman]

Does the gun described shoot "more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger"?

Yes.

Could it therefore be considered a machine gun?

Yes.

 

[bamawrx]

This is also similar to the inserts that you can put in a 37mm grenade launcher that will fire something like 9 .22 LR's at once. Its not a machine gun, so it seems that volley weapons are not NFA. I bet if you got too creative with a volley it would be declared a destructive device.

 

[BhmBill]

Don't try to get smart and find a way around the ATF or the NFA on modern guns.

Firing more than 1 round, without manual reloading, with a single pull of the trigger is considered a machine gun.

About the only thing I can think of would be find yourself a black powder shotgun since they're unregulated, take it to a smith, have it inspected, and see if the smith could indeed do the work you're asking for (firing 2 or more rounds per pull of the trigger)

 

[trickyrick]

it is up to the determination of batf. they tried to prosecute a guy for having a weapon that fired from an open bolt even tho it only had provisions for one round at a time, i.e. no mag or mag well. i have also heard of them going after guys that had malfunctions in semi autos that went full. why take the chance w/ batf, i was taught.

 

[AKElroy]

Hmmmm.... So, if I locate an old 4-barreled COP .357 magnum, I can have the rotating firing pin replaced with a solid, single-thickness disk, and unleash 4 magnums with one pull of the trigger?

I doubt the COP was designed to handle the pressure of all 4 barrels firing at once. I'd like to watch the attempt, (from a distance), but I also like to watch NASCAR for the wrecks.

 

[grimjaw]

I know this is a zombie thread, but I have an analogy for this scenario

I was getting frustrated with squirrels getting into my bird feeders. I'd tried a few different tactics that wouldn't also deter the birds but nothing was working. I asked a good friend of mine about it, who has a few years of experience I don't and his answer was this.

"Of course they keep getting into the feeders. What else have they got to do all day?"

Trying to do an end run around the ATF on this is like trying to beat those squirrels. They (the ATF, not the squirrels) have a team of legal advisers up there somewhere with nothing else to do all day besides come up with new ways to prosecute.

 

[EMUGOD]

Don't try to get smart and find a way around the ATF or the NFA on modern guns.

why take the chance w/ batf, i was taught.

Trying to do an end run around the ATF on this is like trying to beat those squirrels. They (the ATF, not the squirrels) have a team of legal advisers up there somewhere with nothing else to do all day besides come up with new ways to prosecute.

what else am i going to do?
seriously, how else can we expect to fight for our rights but the same tactics they use, ie lawyer-speak bull and dogged determination?

this may be a bit much (and off topic), just what is the deal with destructive devices? is the registry closed like for machine guns? all 40mm launchers are incredibly expensive for what they are (upwards of 3k in all the cases i've seen), even considering an automatic 200$ increase i wouldn't expect them to be over a few hundred? for the kind of prices they are charging it you would almost be breaking even getting the permits and making the thing yourself.

 

[rbernie]

Have you asked the BATFE? They will cheerfully answer any question posed to them.

 

[EMUGOD]

Have you asked the BATFE? They will cheerfully answer any question posed to them.

no i'm gonna worry about finals for the next week and write up a good letter in my spare time and send it when i get home. it will also give me some time to determine if i do actually want to go ahead with any sort of actual construction and some alternative theories of how to get around the law eg. calling the whole thing a 40mm shotshell (or whatever the final diameter winds up being).

 

[CleverNickname]

this may be a bit much (and off topic), just what is the deal with destructive devices? is the registry closed like for machine guns?

No.

all 40mm launchers are incredibly expensive for what they are (upwards of 3k in all the cases i've seen), even considering an automatic 200$ increase i wouldn't expect them to be over a few hundred? for the kind of prices they are charging it you would almost be breaking even getting the permits and making the thing yourself.

I recently got an LMT rail-mount M203 for just under $2k (gun, transfer tax and FFL fee). They're expensive because the market is limited and that's the price the market will bear. If you're comparing the price to a 37mm flare launcher, realize that an M203 is a lot more robust. If you think manufacturers are charging too much you can make a destructive device on a form 1 just like any other title II firearm that's not a machine gun.

 

[EMUGOD]

I recently got an LMT rail-mount M203 for just under $2k (gun, transfer tax and FFL fee). They're expensive because the market is limited and that's the price the market will bear. If you're comparing the price to a 37mm flare launcher, realize than an M203 is a lot more robust.

i guess i've just been seeing the wrong prices. everywhere i've seen has been around $3400 and up, and i was doing the math of $3000 for a three year license + $200 per gun + materials + hiring someone to make it and thinking the price would have to be lower to compete. but i see how ~2k could be the going rate. it must suck to be a 40mm enthusiast, or rather it must not suck to be loaded

 

[Explorer1]

"Does the gun described shoot "more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger"?

Yes.

Could it therefore be considered a machine gun?

Yes."

Please understand there is a man in jail (3 years I think) as he loaned a semi-auto to someone and it missfired, firing 2 rds. Long story short, the ATF saw to it he was charged and is now serving time.
I do not know for sure that is what started this discussion but there was a quote during the court case related to it fires more than once with a single trigger pull its a MG.
So folks, hide those missfiring double guns!

 

[withdrawn34]

Technically, if you put something around both triggers so that one pull pulls both triggers, that would probably, in effect, be a "machine gun."

But just use two fingers and pull both triggers, and its perfectly fine. Go figure. The NFA was never really made to make sense, only to supposedly combat prohibitionist-era crime. Of course, the only thing that worked was to uhh, re legalize and regulate alcohol sales. Maybe there's some precedent for all the drug violence in our nation today.