A gun is always loaded even when it isn't loaded.....

[Waveski]

From mnrivrat:
"Many years ago I was visiting my brother on the farm site he was renting . We were doing some shooting and I emptied my Colt SA but holstered it without removing the empties. I was done shooting. After some time when all shooting was done, I removed the gun from the holster to put it away. The resulting shot fired from my "empty" gun cut the strap on my brothers sandals and put a hole in his sock. It did not break the skin , but it did make him hop and grab his foot. That was about 40 years ago, but to this day I think of it most every time I pick up a gun. I always check to make sure a gun is not loaded as soon as I pick it up."


Well , you made a serious mistake , but you and your brother got away with it. Thank God for that.

Now , What caused your SA Colt to discharge as you removed it from the holster? How did the hammer get accidentally drawn back , and then how was the trigger pulled? Or was it a case of firing pin resting on a live round , in which case the gun must have a hard landing of some sort to cause the primer to detonate .

 

[milemaker13]

I believe the wording was to keep it as short as possible while making it's point and easy to remember.
I believe they achieved that even thought the wording is somewhat awkward.

Remember, most often this is being taught to kids. Starts with that first BB gun

 

[milemaker13]

That's what the rule means but it's not what it says. As written, it says that you shouldn't do anything with an unloaded gun that you wouldn't do with a loaded one. Field stripping a Glock is an obvious example why that's absurd.

The purpose of language is to communicate meaning. Precise use of words clarifies the meaning. Imprecise use obscures it. I have read that at least one of the service academies has a course in order writing. In each period, the cadets are given a military problem and a procedure for handling it. Their assignment is to write an order to implement the procedure. Each day is pass/fail. If anyone can reasonably misconstrue an order, the cadet who wrote it fails. The more I think about that course, the harder it becomes.

The English language is a beautiful thing. Words do have meaning, but we can use words to evoke a more powerful message by purposely misusing them at times. For better or worse, depending on point of view.
Do you ever cuss? Think about the F , S or B words... Generally when we use those words we don't mean those things literally, but it sure helps to get our point across

 

[milemaker13]

Many years ago I was visiting my brother on the farm site he was renting . We were doing some shooting and I emptied my Colt SA but holstered it without removing the empties. I was done shooting. After some time when all shooting was done, I removed the gun from the holster to put it away. The resulting shot fired from my "empty" gun cut the strap on my brothers sandals and put a hole in his sock. It did not break the skin , but it did make him hop and grab his foot. That was about 40 years ago, but to this day I think of it most every time I pick up a gun. I always check to make sure a gun is not loaded as soon as I pick it up.

How is that even possible? I mean, c'Mon, socks with sandals??

 

[milemaker13]

Had a squib the other day at an informal practice for IDPA. Cleared the magazine racked the slide back and locked. Nothing in the chamber. Did not have a rod immediately available so I turned to see if the barrel was blocked by a bullet since it clearly had no case in it.

I was told I would have been DQd for handling a gun in an unsafe manner.

To be sure the barrel was still in the frame. But why would a locked open gun with nothing in the chamber be considered unsafe? Is one supposed to retire and disassemble?

It turned out the bullet had to be knocked out with a brass rod.

Because the best way to shoot yourself is to put your face in front of the barrel. I may be skewing the thread here a bit but I remember two occasions being at the range as a kid with my dad. One, a couple business guys in suits couldn't figure out why their new .22 rifle wouldn't shoot. So here we have 2 "really smart" guys looking into the muzzle of the loaded rifle... The safety was on. Thank God?
The second was my dad's buddy about to shoot MY little .22 semi-auto pistol, with the gun right up to his eye squinting thru the sights. I stopped him just before he put the slide thru his eye... And he did not seem to appreciate my intervention very much. To each his own I guess.

 

[Frank Ettin]

That's what the rule means but it's not what it says. As written, it says that you shouldn't do anything with an unloaded gun that you wouldn't do with a loaded one. Field stripping a Glock is an obvious example why that's absurd.....

Nope.

Rule 1 is properly stated, "All guns are always loaded", and we'll see Jeff Cooper's explanation later.

In any case, our group of instructors (we teach monthly NRA Basic Handgun classes) find the Rule to be helpful and quite well understood by the complete beginners in our classes. Of course since we're all NRA certified instructors and we're teaching the NRA syllabus, we focus on the NRA three rules. But since we're all Gunsite alumnae, we bring up Jeff Cooper's Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." This is how we explain it:

• If you hand me a gun, don't bother telling me it's not loaded. Because Rule 1 applies, I won't believe you and will personally verify/clear the gun.
  
  
• If I criticize you for pointing a gun at me, my spouse, my cat, or anyone/anything else I value, don't bother trying to excuse yourself by telling me that it's not loaded.
  
  
• If your gun fires when you didn't intend it to, don't bother trying to explain yourself by saying anything like, "I didn't think it was loaded." You should have understood that under Rule 1 since it is a gun it is loaded, and you should have conducted yourself accordingly.

Remember that the Four Rules describe an appropriate mindset and attitude for safely handling a loaded gun, as well as specific ways of acting. Rule 1, especially, is about mindset and attitude. If you accept Rule 1, as stated, and burn it into your consciousness in that form, you can not hold a gun in your hands, believe it to be unloaded and wind up doing something dumb with a gun that is actually loaded.

It doesn't matter that Rule 1 might not actually always be true. That's not the point of Rule 1. The purpose of Rule 1, as stated above, is to define for you your state of mind whenever you have a gun in your hand and thus define how you behave with a gun in your hand.

If someone fires a gun unintentionally, he apparently didn't think it was loaded; but since the gun fired, he was wrong. Anyone one who uses a gun for practical applications, such as hunting or self defense, needs to be able to handle a loaded gun properly -- out in the world surrounded by persons and things that must not be shot.

Whenever I take a gun in hand, I know it is loaded and conduct myself accordingly.

Let's see what Jeff Cooper had to say.

• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 6 (1998), No. 2, pg. 8.
  

  ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
  The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.

  
  
• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.9 (2001), No. 6, pg. 29:

  ...We think that "treat all guns as if they were loaded" implies with the "as if" qualification a dangerous choice of assumptions...

  
  
• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.11 (2003), No. 13, pg. 64:

  ...A major point of issue is Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." There are people who insist that we cannot use this because it is not precisely true. Some guns are sometimes unloaded. These folks maintain that the rule should read that one should always treat all guns as if they were loaded. The trouble here is the "as if," which leads to the notion that the instrument at hand may actually not be loaded....

Then as As John Schaefer, another student of Col. Cooper, puts it:

All firearms are loaded. - There are no exceptions. Don't pretend that this is true. Know that it is and handle all firearms accordingly. Do not believe it when someone says: "It isn't loaded."

And at that same link, Mr Schaefer quotes John Farnam in part as follows:

...The correct philosophical approach to serious firearms training is the "the condition doesn't matter" method. This was first articulated by Uncle Jeff in his four rules, but all four can all be rolled together in the universal admonition "DON'T DO STUPID THINGS WITH GUNS!" The "hot range" concept logically flows from this philosophical conclusion. Now, we handle all guns correctly, all the time. We don't have to "pretend" they're loaded. They ARE loaded, continuously, and all students need to become accustomed to it....

A short time ago I received the following (quoted in part) in an email from another Gunsite alumnus:

Negligent discharges that result in injury are the result of 1. IGNORANCE, and/or 2. COMPLACENCY and/or 3. HABIT that is inappropriate to changed conditions.

Proper training with the universal rules can only address #1 and #3.

...The great deficiency of much NRA civilian training ... is that muzzle and trigger discipline are not rigorously enforced except when on the range when the line is hot and sometimes not even then. Change the conditions to carrying a loaded gun at all times and adverse results are predictable.

EXAMPLE #1: Trap and skeet shooters often rest muzzles on their toes and point them at each other. They have almost no accidents on the range because guns are unloaded until just before they shoot. ...CHANGE CONDITIONS to a duck blind with loaded guns and the results are predictable....

One thing that Jeff Cooper said ... made a big impression on me. It is seldom repeated. To address complacency he said that every morning when he picks up his gun he says to himself "somewhere today someone is going to have an accident with a gun - not me, not today".

The current Four Rules grew up on a hot range where it is customary to indeed go about with one's gun(s) loaded and where people are trained who will indeed be going around with loaded guns out in the world and about their normal business.

Gunsite is a hot range. The pistol in your holster, or the rifle or shotgun slung over your shoulder, is expected to be always loaded. So the Four Rules are posted on every range at Gunsite:

Let's all remember that real life in the real world is a hot range.

 

[rskent]

• If you hand me a gun, don't bother telling me it's not loaded. Because Rule 1 applies, I won't believe you and will personally verify/clear the gun.

• If I criticize you for pointing a gun at me, my spouse, my cat, or anyone/anything else I value, don't bother trying to excuse yourself by telling me that it's not loaded.

• If your gun fires when you didn't intend it to, don't bother trying to explain yourself by saying anything like, "I didn't think it was loaded." You should have understood that under Rule 1 since it is a gun it is loaded, and you should have conducted yourself accordingly.

Well said, sir.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I interpret Cooper's Rule #1 as: Always treat a firearm with the respect due a lethal weapon.

aka "I didn't know it was loaded" is not an excuse.

 

[murf]

Nope.

Rule 1 is properly stated, "All guns are always loaded", and we'll see Jeff Cooper's explanation later.

In any case, our group of instructors (we teach monthly NRA Basic Handgun classes) find the Rule to be helpful and quite well understood by the complete beginners in our classes. Of course since we're all NRA certified instructors and we're teaching the NRA syllabus, we focus on the NRA three rules. But since we're all Gunsite alumnae, we bring up Jeff Cooper's Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." This is how we explain it:

• If you hand me a gun, don't bother telling me it's not loaded. Because Rule 1 applies, I won't believe you and will personally verify/clear the gun.
  
  
• If I criticize you for pointing a gun at me, my spouse, my cat, or anyone/anything else I value, don't bother trying to excuse yourself by telling me that it's not loaded.
  
  
• If your gun fires when you didn't intend it to, don't bother trying to explain yourself by saying anything like, "I didn't think it was loaded." You should have understood that under Rule 1 since it is a gun it is loaded, and you should have conducted yourself accordingly.

Remember that the Four Rules describe an appropriate mindset and attitude for safely handling a loaded gun, as well as specific ways of acting. Rule 1, especially, is about mindset and attitude. If you accept Rule 1, as stated, and burn it into your consciousness in that form, you can not hold a gun in your hands, believe it to be unloaded and wind up doing something dumb with a gun that is actually loaded.

It doesn't matter that Rule 1 might not actually always be true. That's not the point of Rule 1. The purpose of Rule 1, as stated above, is to define for you your state of mind whenever you have a gun in your hand and thus define how you behave with a gun in your hand.

If someone fires a gun unintentionally, he apparently didn't think it was loaded; but since the gun fired, he was wrong. Anyone one who uses a gun for practical applications, such as hunting or self defense, needs to be able to handle a loaded gun properly -- out in the world surrounded by persons and things that must not be shot.

Whenever I take a gun in hand, I know it is loaded and conduct myself accordingly.

Let's see what Jeff Cooper had to say.

• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 6 (1998), No. 2, pg. 8.
  
  
  
• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.9 (2001), No. 6, pg. 29:
  
  
• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.11 (2003), No. 13, pg. 64:

Then as As John Schaefer, another student of Col. Cooper, puts it:

​

And at that same link, Mr Schaefer quotes John Farnam in part as follows:

​

A short time ago I received the following (quoted in part) in an email from another Gunsite alumnus:

​

The current Four Rules grew up on a hot range where it is customary to indeed go about with one's gun(s) loaded and where people are trained who will indeed be going around with loaded guns out in the world and about their normal business.

Gunsite is a hot range. The pistol in your holster, or the rifle or shotgun slung over your shoulder, is expected to be always loaded. So the Four Rules are posted on every range at Gunsite:

Let's all remember that real life in the real world is a hot range.

how do you teach your students this concept? is that method effective in burning this rule into the subconscious? do you use that method for the other three rules?

murf

 

[Frank Ettin]

how do you teach your students this concept? is that method effective in burning this rule into the subconscious? do you use that method for the other three rules?.....

We explain it and discuss it during the lecture on safety -- first lecture of the day. We reinforce it, and the other three rules during multiple hands-on exercises, under supervision of an instructor, in which the students handle, and load and unload guns with dummy ammunition. We reinforce it as necessary during exercises with airsoft guns in the classroom and live fire exercises on the range. We model safe gun handling behavior during lectures while handling firearms.

Throughout the class we maintain close observation of the students and offer considerable one-on-one guidance. We maintain a 1:1 or 2:1 instructor to student ration. The class runs ten hours, and it certainly appears to us that students are beginning the development of good safety habits.

Since we're working with beginners there will be lapses of trigger discipline and muzzle discipline. We expect such and comment to the student and gently correct his behavior whenever a lapse occurs. And we consistently point out that when such a lapse occurs that it is important to always consciously follow the safety rules.

We believe that those strategies help lay a solid foundation for the development of good safety habits. The belief seems supported by our interactions with former student who we run into at varous area ranges or who take one of our Personal Protection classes.

While we're old folks by now, none of us are so old that we've entirely forgotten what it was like to be a novice. We've also all had the experience of training on hot ranges, carrying guns in public, and participating in action shooting competitions like USPSA and/or IDPA.

 

[Sam1911]

But why would a locked open gun with nothing in the chamber be considered unsafe?

Because it's a gun. Because there are more people on that range than just you, and they aren't in control of the gun you're pointing in various places including your own face. You may believe, and may KNOW that the gun is unloaded, but they don't, and shouldn't take your word for it. And the SO is responsible for what people do on the firing line and elsewhere in the bay under his/her control.

Is one supposed to retire and disassemble?

Most definitely YES.


Further, the best way to check for a squib before you leave the line is to use your flashlight and shine it an an oblique angle up the barrel. If you see light shine through to the chamber, it's not a squib. If you see no light, have your SO help you holster, then drop your ammo at your bag and retire to the safe table where you can disassemble the gun and rectify the problem.

 

[TomJ]

I had trigger work done on my P229 a number of months ago. A few days after I got it back I was going to dry fire it to check out the new trigger pull and was certain it was unloaded. As as habit I follow rule 1 and figured I'd check it just to be sure, even though I would have bet you a weeks pay it was unloaded. Sure enough there was a round chambered. Given that it takes seconds to check a gun, not doing so is inexcusable given the consequences of being wrong.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....I would have bet you a weeks pay it was unloaded.....

And for a moving lesson why that's a lousy bet and why "All guns are always loaded" see this thread:
Bill Jordan, an "AD" and Cooper's four rules.

 

[Shimitup]

how do you teach your students this concept? is that method effective in burning this rule into the subconscious? do you use that method for the other three rules?

murf

See my post #29, this concept seems to get my students in the mindset that if you pull a trigger it's going off. It doesn't matter whether someone thinks or said about it's condition. Everyone assumes their car will start when they turn the key. You always assume pulling the trigger on any gun will have the same result. Consider rule 1 and think about how important the next 3 have become in light of #1.

 

[taliv]

+1 to everything frank said

i'll add that aside from the obvious problem of accidentally shooting someone, there is another problem that the "as if" crowd seem to take too lightly and that is polite behavior.

it is much like the dog problem, where every dog owner in public seems to think their dog is a special big ball of furry love and that everyone in public must love their dog too and that no one minds being jumped on, covered in fur or dog slobber, to include kids, other dogs, handicapped, etc. it's just plain rude to let your dog off a leash and run over everyone because no one else actually knows that your dog won't bite, won't jump, etc, and it doesn't matter how much you say your dog won't bite, because the retards who routinely say such things have no control over the situation and thus scant credibility.

sorry for ranting a bit, but gun owners seem to be the same. walk into a gun shop and let your muzzle cover everything in the room because YOU KNOW it's unloaded. well, nobody else does. and when you say "it's not loaded", YOU think you've set everyone's mind at ease, when what everyone else heard is "hi, I'm a retard that doesn't understand basic gun safety, or common courtesy. Keep an eye on me because that's probably the first of many stupid things I'll say in the next few minutes."

 

[murf]

We explain it and discuss it during the lecture on safety -- first lecture of the day. We reinforce it, and the other three rules during multiple hands-on exercises, under supervision of an instructor, in which the students handle, and load and unload guns with dummy ammunition. We reinforce it as necessary during exercises with airsoft guns in the classroom and live fire exercises on the range. We model safe gun handling behavior during lectures while handling firearms.

Throughout the class we maintain close observation of the students and offer considerable one-on-one guidance. We maintain a 1:1 or 2:1 instructor to student ration. The class runs ten hours, and it certainly appears to us that students are beginning the development of good safety habits.

Since we're working with beginners there will be lapses of trigger discipline and muzzle discipline. We expect such and comment to the student and gently correct his behavior whenever a lapse occurs. And we consistently point out that when such a lapse occurs that it is important to always consciously follow the safety rules.

We believe that those strategies help lay a solid foundation for the development of good safety habits. The belief seems supported by our interactions with former student who we run into at varous area ranges or who take one of our Personal Protection classes.

While we're old folks by now, none of us are so old that we've entirely forgotten what it was like to be a novice. We've also all had the experience of training on hot ranges, carrying guns in public, and participating in action shooting competitions like USPSA and/or IDPA.

so this is classical teaching/learning: repetition until the action becomes habit, like singing your abcs, or walking. do you think most of your students take those habits home with them, or leave them at the door when they leave your class? i'm not being facetious here. i think most people that follow the "rules" at the range leave them at the range when they leave. i'm glad these skills are being taught and, hopefully, retained outside the range.

thx,

murf

 

[murf]

+1 to everything frank said

i'll add that aside from the obvious problem of accidentally shooting someone, there is another problem that the "as if" crowd seem to take too lightly and that is polite behavior.

it is much like the dog problem, where every dog owner in public seems to think their dog is a special big ball of furry love and that everyone in public must love their dog too and that no one minds being jumped on, covered in fur or dog slobber, to include kids, other dogs, handicapped, etc. it's just plain rude to let your dog off a leash and run over everyone because no one else actually knows that your dog won't bite, won't jump, etc, and it doesn't matter how much you say your dog won't bite, because the retards who routinely say such things have no control over the situation and thus scant credibility.

sorry for ranting a bit, but gun owners seem to be the same. walk into a gun shop and let your muzzle cover everything in the room because YOU KNOW it's unloaded. well, nobody else does. and when you say "it's not loaded", YOU think you've set everyone's mind at ease, when what everyone else heard is "hi, I'm a retard that doesn't understand basic gun safety, or common courtesy. Keep an eye on me because that's probably the first of many stupid things I'll say in the next few minutes."

i believe most people think "the gun is always loaded" rule only applies to their own gun, not everyone else's gun. the rule should apply to everyone's gun, not just your own gun, imo. when i am in a gun store, every gun in the joint is loaded whether it is on my hip, another person's hip, in the display case, or in someone's hand. the rule applies everywhere and all the time for me.

not many people think this way, imo. but, there is hope and education.

murf

 

[Ironicaintit]

I guess I'm lucky and had these rules hammered into me by my endlessly badgering dad, for as far back as I can remember. Getting snapped at and slapped on the back of the head when I let my finger rest on the trigger was annoying as heck....but it worked! Thanks Dad!

The four rules make perfect sense....until one starts to overthink them, in an effort to carve out exceptions.

Our memory is definitely fallible, so it's a great idea to practice them until they become ingrained habits. Is it loaded? Dunno. Better treat it like it is!

Now, when the rules are firmly entrenched on your psyche, it's easy enough to safely find the exceptions.
I.E.- disassembling a Glock.

I think it's funny watching iraqiveteran8888 on YouTube. If he's holding a pistol, he checks it constantly. Almost OCD.

 

[Sig Bill]

As I became more experienced with guns I adopted my own rules on gun safety. I'd say that as rule #1 it is, "It's safer to assume that the gun is loaded rather than not loaded so treat it as such."

Even if you cleared it already it's still safer to assume that it's loaded than not. Why? Because it leads to rules #2. #3 and #4, touching the trigger and pointing at something. If you do any of this, you'd better be right that it's not loaded.

Most accidents are caused by laziness and stupidity. Stupidity is squeezing the trigger to prove it's not loaded. Laziness is for not clearing the gun the right way.

As for sticking your pinky to clear the chamber, it's your pinky if you trust the slide stop. Me? I use the pen light up from the muzzle end. If you see the light it's clear. If not then it's got a round in the chamber or it's a squib.

I don't trust slide stops. I had one just snapped off and the slide slammed shut on my KelTec PF9 and that made me realize if I had my pinky there I'd be in a world of hurt.

I carry a G29 with a 21# spring (for the 9x25 Dillon) so no way I'm sticking my pinky in there.

 

[Frank Ettin]

so this is classical teaching/learning: repetition until the action becomes habit, like singing your abcs, or walking. do you think most of your students take those habits home with them, or leave them at the door when they leave your class?....

There's no way to know for sure, short of having an instructor move in with each student. All we can do is try to do the best job of it we can and hope our students remember and are motivated to stick with it all. My friends and I were.

One reason to hope that our student take things seriously and tend the seeds we planted so that they grow is that they spent their hard earned money and a whole Saturday of their lives to voluntarily take the class. So they chose to take the class and have "skin in the game" -- both great motivators.

No doubt some won't immediately internalize our lessons. But we've done our best to give our students a good start, so it's up to them to make the most of it.

 

[Iron Sight]

If you are used to unloading a revolver with a swing open cylinder by dumping out the cartridges without the aid of the ejector...Make sure all cartridges dropped out before closing the cylinder.

 

[Sig Bill]

Some people doesn't know about the ejector on a revolver like my friend. I saw him trying to pick the casings out of the cylinder that I asked him,

"What are you doing?"

"I'm getting the shells out so I can put new bullets in it."

"Well, push on this rod then."

"Oh, that's how it works."

 

[murf]

There's no way to know for sure, short of having an instructor move in with each student. All we can do is try to do the best job of it we can and hope our students remember and are motivated to stick with it all. My friends and I were.

One reason to hope that our student take things seriously and tend the seeds we planted so that they grow is that they spent their hard earned money and a whole Saturday of their lives to voluntarily take the class. So they chose to take the class and have "skin in the game" -- both great motivators.

No doubt some won't immediately internalize our lessons. But we've done our best to give our students a good start, so it's up to them to make the most of it.

since your students understand the underlying concept, i'm sure they all are making the most of it. thanks for explaining the "why" of what you are doing. it's pretty obvious by some of these posts that a lot of thr members don't understand the concept.

thx,

murf

 

[Tirod]

Carry handguns are NOT for Show and Tell. Do NOT unholster your carry gun in public unless you need to use it.

If you want to play Show and Tell with what's in your holster then you need to carry a replica gun--or better yet, not carry at all.

This needs to become Rule #5. We don't like to complicate things, but it's OBVIOUSLY necessary these days when people refuse to understand why Rule #1 should be treated as an absolute. Making excuses and conjuring work arounds for Rule #1 is exactly how negligent discharges are conducted.

What we are now really discussing is the human tendency to circumvent an absolute - "don't do this" - when it's in their best interest. Why? Because humans think they are above the rules. When you adopt that concept then you can and will discover that the laws of physics will not cooperate and self inflicted injury or injury to others, up to and including death, is the result.

Stop thinking that the rules are for others. They are not. Adopt them for your protection or ignore them at your risk. It's not a warm fuzzy pick your feelings kind of thing. It's hard and fast, black and white, absolute. Like it or not. A proper sense of grammar or specious argumentation will not fix a bullet hole in your hand or your wife. What part of that do we not understand?

HANDGUNS ARE NOT FOR SHOW AND TELL. THEY ARE LETHAL WEAPONS. Pulling your loaded handgun means YOU INTEND TO SHOOT.

Adults don't even allow the conversation to start in the first place. Concealed means concealed.

By the way, those of us still married to our first wife who discuss this don't seem to have any issues with it. We understand an absolute.

 

[Walkalong]

i believe most people think "the gun is always loaded" rule only applies to their own gun, not everyone else's gun. the rule should apply to everyone's gun, not just your own gun, imo. when i am in a gun store, every gun in the joint is loaded whether it is on my hip, another person's hip, in the display case, or in someone's hand. the rule applies everywhere and all the time for me.

not many people think this way, imo. but, there is hope and education.

I know I sure do.