a holster for every gun

[Pete D.]

BFDave: So....you did try both. Well, that's something. The differences are beginning to gel for me at this point.
I will still want to try for myself. Probably. Maybe.
This is what I was able to find.
You consider this bulky?



Sam:

You still have to cross the intervening territory and that takes just as much time -- more now, actually -- than it would have had you simply come UP to begin with.

I am beginning to see your point. It just seemed (still does) that the simple act of raising the straight arm was a simple enough act.
Thanks for your patience.
Pete

 

[F-111 John]

So you went down instead of up, now you have to come UP -- and come up farther than you would have had to before.

I think this holster is impractical for CCW, and probably impractical for military battlefield use as well. However I respectfully disagree with Sam on his one point above.

You grip weapon. You push down to unholster, load, and disengage safety. Your arm is now straight, pointing down, with a grip on the weapon. You then simply rotate your arm at the shoulder, keeping your arm straight, and your weak hand meets your strong hand in front of you. You now have your isosceles stance, ready to fire.

Sam makes it sound as if after you unholster by pushing, you must then bend your elbow to bring the gun back up along your body to your belly with the muzzle down, then have your off hand meet your strong hand at your belly button, give that tacticacool left and right head look, then rotate the weapon and press forward into the isoceles stance.

I suppose the latter is required for close quarters weapon retention, but it is not required for the fastest possible first shot.

 

[Sam1911]

You grip weapon. You push down to unholster, load, and disengage safety. Your arm is now straight, pointing down, with a grip on the weapon. You then simply rotate your arm at the shoulder, keeping your arm straight, and your weak hand meets your strong hand in front of you. You now have your isosceles stance, ready to fire.

But that sweep up with arm locked straight is a BAD draw. This is the "SCOOP" or "potato digger" draw I keep referring to. It is insufficient on several levels. A clear mark of a newbie shooter that needs coaching. That's something we're slowly helping get folks to abandon.

It isn't faster than the 4-count draw, it is lousy for retention and is easily blocked, and presents the weapon to the target in the wrong motion.

Instead of pushing the gun out toward the target, from Count 2, through 3, and to fully extended at Count 4, you're sweeping up across the target, hoping to break the shot as you swing past your target point. In essence, "wingshooting" at a stationary target. (Or as you slow your motion and try to stop on the target point.)

With the 4-count, you're making a motion that is directed right at your target the whole time, and the gun can be fired anywhere along the path. As you move from close retention (Count 2) to hands together at center (Count 3) and then push out into extension (Count 4) you're dressing the sights and improving your accuracy potential, but you're starting the whole motion with the gun already aligned on target.

but it is not required for the fastest possible first shot.

Competition shooters who really care about the (MOST ACCURATE) fastest first shot do not agree with you. Watch what Todd Jarrett, Jerry Miculek and the rest are doing. Raise gun, hands together, press forward, shot breaks at the instant of extention. Some of them don't use a real high-and-tight Count 2 position, but the motion is the same.

 

[Pete D.]

These videos were helpful. Is this what you are describing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG66io6XxFk&feature=fvst

and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCt0ihKzsNE&feature=related

Looked at a number of videos of Todd Jarrett and Jerry Miculek.
Jarrett seems to be using a specialized holster that allows the gun to move forward without lifting the gun up very much to clear. Is that the case?
Speed aside for a moment..none of those holsters appear to be any less bulky than the one that is pictured above.
Pete

PS - hard to compare, even with these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCx7Ve3ozg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fobvYJVXqBQ

 

[Sam1911]

Yes, that second video is a pretty good demonstration of what I'm describing.

The first guy has the right idea, though he gives the impression that he needs more years of practice before he sets out on his teaching career.

Some of the videos you'll find of competition shooters will show them using USPSA "Open Class" gear. Skeletonized holsters and the like. That can be confusing, but they will use largely the same draw.

I don't have a problem with the bulk of the 'Spetsnaz' holster. Bulk isn't much of an issue from my perspective.

Love the second set! Hey, there's Sonny! Yes, it's going to be hard to compare those with more purposeful videos designed less as sales promotions to the uninformed.

 

[Sam1911]

Pete, here's a detailed explanation: http://www.teddytactical.com/Redesign/TeddyTalk/fourcountdraw.html

 

[bigfatdave]

You consider this bulky?

It sticks out from the belt too much for me ... so yes.
I suppose if your standard is some kind of paddle holster, it isn't that bad.

You grip weapon. You push down to unholster, load, and disengage safety. Your arm is now straight, pointing down, with a grip on the weapon. You then simply rotate your arm at the shoulder, keeping your arm straight, and your weak hand meets your strong hand in front of you. You now have your isosceles stance, ready to fire.

Try that with a gun-weight object, just starting from the belt. Tape a flashlight or laser to it and you'll see that it doesn't put your sights on target faster, you have to either overshoot upwards on too much momentum or slow it down.
Push the gun out and your sights end up on target much more effectively, because you aren't wildly waving your arm in the air with a 2# weight on the end of it.

 

[Sam1911]

Here's another view of a carefully parsed 4-count draw: http://me1.tripod.com/4count.html

Unfortunately he's using it to go to Weaver, but it should be clear from the pics how it would work more smoothly to go to a more appealing Isosceles presentation.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Here's another view of a carefully parsed 4-count draw: http://me1.tripod.com/4count.html

Pete, also consider this. We train for self defense purposes. Training for many different scenarios is necessary because we just never know exactly what we are going to face (which is hopefully nothing).

With the 4 count draw you are able to fire starting at step 2 if need be. Guess what, you just saved yourself some precious time.

Let's put that in perspective and just guess that you saved .75 seconds. For the average person, that is more than 8 feet of sprinting time.

Don't forget to account for drawing while moving, laying, sitting or any other host of environmental factors that we may face. The spetnaz type holster is going to be a little more goofy to operate in those areas.

So ask yourself why you would want to carry in a way that will be slower than modern practices, presents you with less options, in such a way that 99.9099 percent of trainers will not train you on and that no top (or bottom) competitor uses (if it was faster and better, they would certainly use it).

Sure, the spetznaz uses it or at least used it at one time. I'm not spetnaz. My primary weapon is going to be my handgun. I need to focus my training on what gets it going faster.

Going back to your original observation about this holster solving the problem of carrying with a round in the chamber, you'll see that the same problem can be fixed with discipline, awareness and training (mindset and skill-set). Skipping over both of those aspects and jumping to the hardware (equipment) kind of goes against the order of mindset, skill-set then equipment. You're solving a software problem with hardwear that creates more problems (more complex and less effective draw stroke).

 

[Pete D.]

nuh-uh

Going back to your original observation about this holster solving the problem of carrying with a round in the chamber...

Nuh-uh. Not my observation. I didn't join in until page two. When I carry, there's one in the chamber.

About saving three-quarters of a second...i realize that was just an estimate but in this arena, .75 sec is a looong time.
About competition use:

(if it was faster and better, they would certainly use it

Very true. That is usually my argument about the effectiveness of a piece of equipment.

About options:

presents you with less options, in such a way that 99.9099 percent of trainers will not train you on

Not being argumentative here - I an just an old Bullseye shooter and that is where my training is - what options are compromised? I really don't know.
Pete

 

[Pete D.]

OK now

I will still want to try for myself. Probably. Maybe

So, I did. And, yes, I can see that the holsters and techniques in the videos are faster than the push down and out holster.
The big issue with the "Spetnaz" holster is that it requires a good healthy shove in order to unholster the gun. That is most probably a training issue. Every time that I have given a GHS to the gun, the holster has worked as advertised.
It is not particularly fast. But, then, I don't train the way some of y'all seem to so a regular holster is not particularly fast for me.
i do see the point that was made about the gun being down when other techniques have it up within the same time frame.
Pete

 

[ForumSurfer]

So, I did. And, yes, I can see that the holsters and techniques in the videos are faster than the push down and out holster.
The big issue with the "Spetnaz" holster is that it requires a good healthy shove in order to unholster the gun. That is most probably a training issue. Every time that I have given a GHS to the gun, the holster has worked as advertised.
It is not particularly fast. But, then, I don't train the way some of y'all seem to so a regular holster is not particularly fast for me.
i do see the point that was made about the gun being down when other techniques have it up within the same time frame.
Pete

10 minutes of shooting > 10 days of discussion



I do believe that you are just as hard headed as myself. I was insistent that my way was ok because of my own false rationalizations until someone showed me. Discussion is great, but sometimes we need to get out there and just shoot.

I don't train the way some of y'all seem to so a regular holster is not particularly fast for me.

%99 of us could use more draw practice. Think about that. The only part of shooting that is completely free, and it is the most under-practiced procedure. Not only is it free, but we can do it at home. You can even sit and do it while watching TV and get practice drawing from a seated position. Invest a few bucks in snap caps (an maybe even a laser) and you can practice some great draw, trigger manipulation and reloading skills. Given how much time we all can squeeze in at home and that it is %100 free since we've already got all the equipment we need, we should all be Quick Draw McGraw. Unfortunately many of us neglect this and don't practice anywhere near as much as we should/can...myself included.

 

[bigfatdave]

%99 of us could use more draw practice. Think about that. The only part of shooting that is completely free, and it is the most under-practiced procedure. Not only is it free, but we can do it at home. You can even sit and do it while watching TV and get practice drawing from a seated position. Invest a few bucks in snap caps (an maybe even a laser) and you can practice some great draw, trigger manipulation and reloading skills. Given how much time we all can squeeze in at home and that it is %100 free since we've already got all the equipment we need, we should all be Quick Draw McGraw. Unfortunately many of us neglect this and don't practice anywhere near as much as we should/can...myself included.

This is good thinking. Instead of looking for the gadget to fix a sloppy fumble-tastic draw, practice instead.
I strongly recommend loading up with snap-caps or dummy ammunition, putting on the idiot box, and picking yourself a cue to draw and "fire" on. I like gameshows, and I try to tag the host while solving the puzzles ... Nothing against Alex Trebek, but he's only on screen for a few moments at a time and the show keeps my brain occupied.

I should have someone keep score, both on hits and right answers.