A kickless 12 gauge...

[Dave McCracken]

Neither job required my presence this eve, so off to PGC for some trap went I.

I started shooting the bull first while the trap was fed, and one fellow there had a very odd looking 1100.

Definitely a trap gun, it had a Metallic Green stock and forearm, a hue usually associated with California hot rods and Peyote. He had gotten it from Jack West stocks, and loved it.

The rib was so high a pingpong ball could have made it through underneath. The stock had an adjustable comb, and it showed plenty of daylight too. Best guess, the centerline of the bore was more than 2 inches below line of sight, and maybe 3.

Like most trapshooters, the owner thereof was willing to talk about his creation. He was a decent sort, and advised me that it had a .747" overbore,42 POC, and a long cone. It was his handicap gun and his pride and joy.

We then shot from the 26 yard line and if he missed any, I didn't notice. I shot somewhat less successfully but had a great time.

After a few more rounds of watching him grind targets into smoke and dust, he let me try the thing out. I did a practice mount or two and noted that while it was as heavy as my TB, it was a little faster. Balance was a little further back.

I then tried a shot, with his kind permission. Little bitty pieces from the 26 yard line was the result. And the thing didn't kick enough for me to note a push. I was trying to.

The combo of that straight line recoil, overbore, long cone,weight and gas action resulted in very little movement, and no noted push. I watched the bird break without losing it behind the barrel.

So for the recoil sensitive,(As the proud owner of this freely admitted), this is the way to go.

 

[Benjamin]

On a similar but different note, the USAS 12 has no recoil. It is also rather heavy (on the order of 10 pounds) and gas operated. However, it is also drum fed and capable of select fire.

The handicap 1100 is likely more germain for trap @ 26 yards, though.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Definitely more germane for trap. However, I wonder how the Geezer Squad would handle things if I were to show up with a select fire, belt or drum fed EBS.

Some would mutter darkly about trap going to Heck, others would line up to try it out.

Back on topic, I wonder how many if any folks reading this thread will put together a kickless gas gun for their kid, SO or themselves.

 

[vertigo7]

Back on topic, I wonder how many if any folks reading this thread will put together a kickless gas gun for their kid, SO or themselves.

I'd certainly like to! When the funds become available again, I may look into getting the needed bits and pieces together to assemble one of my own. Any other information / specs you can provide on the setup would be helpful.

vertigo7

 

[Dave McCracken]

Not a lot to add, 7. The big things would be using as straight a stock as possible, a gas action with overbore and long cone.

Seminole,etc, offers competition packages like this on the 391 Beretta. That may be a close equivalent.

If you've an 1100, Shotgun Sports mag has an 1100 barrel offered, 30" long with .740" overbore, long cone and special choke tubes for $300, tubes run $25 each.

Or, Briley would set up a barrel for about the same money if you want to use a barrel you already have. The one mentioned here is a standard Remington barrel with a fixed choke.

HTH...

 

[Traveler]

There are several recoilless shotgun designs. Lujtic (I think that's the correct spelling) was the most commercially successful.

Personnally I always found them awkward, but I shoot low gun for everything. Mounted gun sports can (and do) get away with things that won't work in other applications.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Actually, Traveler, this was nimble and quick, and the stock was short enough for me to do a fast mount. YMMV. The thing was setup for most of the pattern hitting over the POA, but I prefer something like 60/40 for everything. With choke tubes and a couple different loadings, one could do all the games with soemthing like this. And for birdshooting that requires neither a teacup of #2 shot nor a lot of toting, this could make a good birdshooter, say for dove.

 

[PerfectGlock]

I don't know much about shotguns, can somebody explain how this works?

Pictures? Websites?

 

[Dave McCracken]

Don't have any pics, here's what works on this in a nutshell.

Each of the mods mentioned lowers the kick a trifle, but the big reduction comes from the gas action. In essence, the gas vented off moves parts and also retards some of the rearward push long enough to not be felt as part of the main pulse. The kick is divided into a couple smaller punches instead of one big one.

The closer recoil goes to a straight line the less it's felt. The high line of sight on this means the stock is straighter than most, and the recoil pushes into the "Cup" equally at the top and bottom so it's spread out more evenly.

The advantages would include less kick of course, and faster recovery for double and/or followup shots. Much more comfort also.

Most of the best competition autos used at ANY of the games from trap to "Practical" are set up like this, with the exception of the high sight line. Think of the sight setup on the M-16 vs that of the M-14. High sight line, straight stock, less kick and greater retention of the sight pic.

HTH....

 

[Kimber Kid]

The Browning recoiless is a wierd looking bird too - it never really caught on. I like my 1-1/8 ounce loads at 1080 fps; four rounds of trap is no problem.

 

[Benjamin]

Oops.

Yes, the browning recoilless shotgun is also quite effective at dampening recoil. It's an odd setup. The entire barrel and bolt group travel forward about 1.5" upon pulling the trigger. At the end of this travel the cartridge is fired, and the recoil resets things.

My father used to go 4-8 rounds with his, without complaints.

It is a single shot, bolt action, so not suitable for doubles or the like.

 

[curt]

Dave,
I can easily see why the stock design and gas action could "reduce" recoil, by channeling it straight into the shoulder and spreading the recoil impulse over time. But how does the overbore and lengthened cone contribute? I understand what they do for accuracy but how do they affect recoil?

 

[Clemson]

Curt,

If you think of a graph of recoil vs. time, the total energy received would be the area under the curve. A tall, thin peak would represent a conventional gun. A shorter but wider peak would represent one of the modifications that Dave mentioned, like a lengthened forcing cone or overboring the barrel. The total recoil is the same, but it is spread out over a bit more time because the pressure peak is reduced.

At least that is my interpretation. No charge........

Clemson

 

[Onslaught]

So does all this "straight line recoil" stuff mean that my new stock may have less felt recoil than the one I replaced?

 

[curt]

clemson,
Yes i understand how spreading the impulse out over time lessens the perception of recoil as i mentioned in my post. However, i don't understand how lengthening the forcing cone does that, or whatever it may be doing to lessen recoil.

Seems to me that lengthening the cone would minimize an impulse in the FORWARD direction by minimizing the impact of the shot against the inside of the barrel and might increase the velocity of the shot and barrel, both of which would tend to increase recoil.

I'm not saying it doesn't minimize recoil, i'm just trying to understand why a gun with a lengthened cone or overbore would kick less than one with a standard cone.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks for the explanation, Clemson.

Curt, the increase in pressure when the shot and wad, driven by the expanding gases behind it, is momentarily slowed by contact with the cone is less with a long cone. It's spread out a bit in both time and distance. The push is not as hard nor as fast, so it feels less.

The overbored barrel has the gas pressing on a greater surface area. Larger area means less pressure. Again,a little less recoil. Same velocity, for all intents and purposes. Some overbores with some loads gain velocity a little, some lose.

Let's posit the load, out of a standard barrel and action, is 15 ft/lbs from a shotgun of the same weight as this one. The long cone and overbore each drop the recoil (arbitrary guess) 1 ft/lb. The gas action slows enough recoil to remove 5 ft/lbs from the main pulse. Voila, a 40% drop in felt recoil. That 5 lbs, BTW, returns to the equation, but does so later, so that it's not part of the major kick. A couple smaller pushes that add up the same as one bigger push.

Hope that clears it for you.

Onslaught, possibly, if the pitch and drop is correct for you.

 

[Alex]

The browning recoiless was a good design for recoil reduction, I had one shortly, but found that it was horrible when used with many handloads tending to jam and there wasn't enough leverage on the bolt to extract a shell which than had to be pushed out with a ramrod through the barrel. All in all, I'm sorry I got rid of mine, I bought it new for about $500 when they retailed brand new originally for close to $2000. It would have been an interesting collectible.

 

[curt]

Hope that clears it for you.

I believe it does dave, thanks.