A Magazine Malfunction (Revisited)

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I have heard the Rugers use the same follower that CMC does. It is the magazine spring that causes that kind of malfuntion in 1911's but I do not allow Rugers in the Yard so I can't be of much help.
 
...At this point, the slide isn't in contact with the round...It's chasing it. If the round is already slightly forward due to its' obeying Newton's first law, it's pretty easy to understand that it doesn't have to move too much further to escape from the magazine's control...unless there's somthing there to block its path. Heavy magazine spring tension might do it...but it's not really reliable enough to do it every time...with
Click to expand...

The way its described here (or, more correctly, the way I understand what's described here), it sounds as though the round has been hit, like a baseball by a bat, and is hurtling forward. That makes sense, given the speed with which things are happening, and the rapidness of the slide's movement.

But doesn't the extractor CATCH and hold the round against the breech face? I though the round moves UP under the extractor -- and that controls it both as it goes forward and when it comes back, after firing?

If that isn't the case, isn't the extractor FORCED to slip over the rim of the cartridge as the slide moves into battery?

What am I overlooking or misunderstanding in my reading/misreading of this scenario?

Love that SIG GSR, by the way. The more I shoot it, the better it seems to run...
 
re:

Howdy Walt,

The round IS supposed to go under the extractor, and it will unless it loses contact with the slide. As long as the mag spring tension is enough to hold the round by friction, all goes well. When the mag spring tension is at a minimum...like it is with only one round...sometimes it needs a little help to keep from goin' too far when the slide hits it. The dimple is a stop for the round.

Picture a truck smackin' into the back of a stopped Volkswagen that is standing still without the brakes applied. Now, picture the same situation
if the VW had the parking brake set...mag spring tension/friction...Now imagine the VW with the parking brake applied, and there's a brick wall 5 feet in front of it...Friction AND the dimple. On impact, the car with the brake applied alone will move ahead of the truck, but the truck will catch up
to it earlier than if the brake weren't applied...but the truck still has to catch it, and it may even knock it out front again when it does. With the brick wall in place, the VW can only get so far ahead of the truck after impact, and it'll get pushed through the wall with the truck maintaining contact all the way.

So the dimple is probably another typical Browning redundancy that keeps the round from getting too far ahead of the slide after it gets kicked in the butt. The magazine spring fatigues with use, while the dimple is constant.
 
Darn! Dat Tuner is picking on me big time again because he knows I have a neat little '70 VW Beetle that I use for poverty days here in town. And listen Tuner, we ain't going to smack it with no huge truck just to prove a point. Here is the other side of the story. If your 1911 is not tuned up right, last round FTF are common. You need a breechface as smooth as my head, you need an ejector tweaked and you need an extractor that has been shaped properly to ease the last round entry into the chamber. We also chamfer the firing pin hole so the case rim has to slide up the breechface and go in the chamber like it's been greased. Just woofin' about my little yellow buggy, Tuner.
 
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Here she is, Tuner. Sleeping at the Whitington Center outside of Raton, NM

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We drag her around behind the Old Desert Rat all over the West.
 
Dave Sample said:
If your 1911 is not tuned up right, last round FTF are common. You need a breechface as smooth as my head, you need an ejector tweaked and you need an extractor that has been shaped properly to ease the last round entry into the chamber. We also chamfer the firing pin hole so the case rim has to slide up the breechface and go in the chamber like it's been greased.
Click to expand...

Ah ... Dave.

Back when we were fighting during World War War Two, model 1911-A1's were literally turned out by the millions without much final assembly handwork. Yet these "rough" guns earned a well deserved reputation for reliability. To cite an even worst example, Chinese Norinco's are "as rough as a cob," yet owners have posted here on The High Road how their out-of-the-box guns function reliably.

I'm not knocking the handwork you advocated, although an excessive chamfering of the firing pin hole might result in jams caused by primer flow back. But while polishing the breechface and all the rest is desireable, it shouldn't be necessary to get a reliably working pistol.
 
Chamfer

Fuff said:

excessive chamfering of the firing pin hole might result in jams caused by primer flow back.
_______________

Yeah buddy! Don't ask me about the time I learned that the hard way... :rolleyes: :D

Caspian slides will allow a little more leeway on that chamfer thing because they use the same size firing pin as the Springfields do...close to .38 Super/9mm size.
Overchamfering with a standard .45 caliber pin port will getcha in a jam right quick...pun intended. :cool:
 
I ain't ever seen a hand checkerd trailer hitch before. Gee, Mr. Sample is quite talented - huh? ;)

I like the doodle bug , brings back memories....

Good thread , I'm enjoying it. You know if you fellas would get a good used OLD Kframe you wouldn't have to worry about dimples. :neener:

I'm going sit in the corner now and wait for Tuner to PM me with a tacky comment ... :uhoh: :D
 
I agree with Tuner and Old Fuff that amateurs should not try most of the things that pistolsmith do. If old junk GI guns were so great, I would have never been in business. We would still be using the old rattletraps from WWI and be happy we could hit something at five yards. Our PATRIOT Caspian Slides are made with 45 firing pin holes because that is what I like. You can get them either way. We also can change them from 9mm/38Super to 45 ACP with a plunger tube reamer and a small jig. The idea that I am too dumb to do these things is pretty silly because my guns run forever, as far as we know. If these factory 1911's were built as good as I build them, we wouldn't have many questions to answer about malfunctions. I guess there is something about the "Old School Fans" that I am missing. Being 50 years behind the times is interesting to some, but not to me. The majority of the WWII 1911's that I have seen are very well done and the people that made them cared about doing good work back then. I would not hesitate to tune one up and use it for a carry gun right now. You have no idea how glad I am to be out of the 1911 Pistolsmith Business. It is the biggest can of worms that I have ever been involved with. Every other guy on the internet knows more than I do so I just lean back and chuckle.
I am getting ready to checker a trailor hitch ball and all I have to do is decide if I want 20, 25, 30, 50, or 75 Lines Per Inch!
 
Final Point

Aight! back on topic...(I do a little chucklin' myself sometimes, Cap'n.)

As a final point to the Dagnab Dimple Story...

The 1911 is a "Controlled Feed Design." Let that sink in for a minute. Controlled feed means that the gun is supposed to maintain complete control of the round from the time it goes into the magazine until it gets kicked clear of the ejection port. All rounds...not just the first six. All of'em. The first six rounds in the magazine have an advantage over the last one in that the magazine spring tension is sufficient to impose friction on the feeding round and keep it in place...
assuming that the spring isn't worn completely out. The last round is under mimimum spring tension...and the dimple or "tit" works to maintain that control.
Whenever control is lost...either by design or by modification...the way that the magazine...and the function of the pistol...is changed.

The dimple isn't a guarantee. Guaranteed reliability is statistically impossible to attain. Reliability isn't about guarantees anyway. It's about reducing the chances
of something going wrong. The dimple is just another example of Browning's redundant habit of designing a backup to the the primary system...and reduces the chances that the slide will lose control of the last round. The simple, simple dimple.

Food fer thinkin'.

Cheers!
 
>> Our PATRIOT Caspian Slides are made with 45 firing pin holes because that is what I like. You can get them either way. We also can change them from 9mm/38Super to 45 ACP with a plunger tube reamer and a small jig. <<

Gee ... Remarkable to say the least! Then what do you do about opening up the 9mm/38Super breechface and relocating the extractor tunnel? :scrutiny:

Or maybe you're going to a lot of trouble to get .45 slides with .38 firing pin holes and the opening them up to .45 size when you could have bought them that way in the first place?


>> I guess there is something about the "Old School Fans" that I am missing. <<

Dave, there's a lot you're missing ... :evil: :D :D
 
Old Fuff. I don't do anything with 38Super/9mm slides. Caspian makes all of the slides for .38/9mm /.40 firing pins unless you order something different. I agree with you. You have missed a lot. You can't read what is said , for one thing. I would think that a man of your vast knowledge and experience would know that I can do things that I may not have to do. Let me make this topic perfectly clear. If I run across a random 45 ACP slide with a 9mm/38Super.40 firing pin hole, I can change it to a 45 ACP firing pin size with ease. I also can order the PATRIOT SLIDES from Caspian arms with a 45ACP size firing pin hole if I wish. I like that size in a 45 ACP pistol because I am even more behind the times in some areas than you are. As far as I know. the 38 Super/9mm/.40 size firing pins work just fine. I am just picky.
 
Time gentlemen...Please!

Aight you two mangy varmints! Ah'm-a gonna throw the both of yuh in the hoosegow if'n yuh don't stop that there fightin' and scrappin'. Now, put away them there shootin' irons and git-a-goin'! :scrutiny:
 
OK Tuner. I am just having fun. I'll put the .454 Casull back in my cowboy boot where it lives now. I have loaded some 300 grain butt kickers that I am ready to try out when I get around to it. Good for the wild pigs that roam around in my front yard. Those guys are protected, but not from me. I have always had a soft spot for oinkers.
 
Havin' Fun

All's well on the home front. I thought ya'll was gettin' ready ta square off. I was gonna say that I'd allow a thread jack if the jackers wanted ta bribe me with some GI parts... :D (I need mainspring housings and thumb safeties.) :cool:
 
I do not have a problem with Old Fuff. There is always some one like him on every forum and I like the way they put me down. Remember "WalterGA" on GT? I guess they really can't stand anyone but themselves knowing a few things. Old Fuff is absoultely right. I have much to learn! I need to learn about people on forums. I need to learn more about these !@#$%^&U)_ computers. I need to learn more about women! And every gun I work on teaches me something that I didn't want to know. Oh well. I have those parts lying around somewhere Tuner. Maybe someday they will come your way! I love a good bribe. Heh Heh Heh.
 
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